Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:46 pm

Alex123 wrote:IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters
Yes, I agree.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:31 am

Alex123 wrote: Empirically (not metaphysically!) we can see bodies growing older, aging and dying. This does not have to imply any metaphysics, just what can be empirically observed.
I want to point out that we can not see bodies growing older. As a first approximation what we do is to observe a body at different points of time and note differences....then we use these differences to support a fabricated concept of "aging" or "growing older". Also, I think that people would agree that as time passes everything gets older whether there is an observed change or not.....so then "getting older" is just another way of saying that time has passed.
chownah

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:34 am

Nice observation, Chownah.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by ancientbuddhism » Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:18 pm

The Early Buddhist Notion of the Middle Path – David J. Kalupahana


In addition to discussing the Middle Way intrinsic to teachings of the early schools, there is discussion of ‘theories of moments (kṣaṇa)’ from page 3.
Last edited by ancientbuddhism on Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:46 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.
I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:58 pm

Alex123 wrote:
"this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMHO it is this kind of dukkha that really matters, not the "it is all an illusion" or "rupas change and die every second".
Hi Alex,

The first sacca, sacca dukkha includes aging, but extends far beyond than that.

The five aggregates of clinging are the last to be mentioned. Without knowing directly the characteristics of each khanda, as dhammas, how can you know them by your own experience as anicca, dukkha, anatta?

Regards,

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:00 am

dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.
Oh? How so?

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:41 am

Mindfulness and Awareness, by Ñāṇavīra Thera
The Pali word for awareness is sampajañña. In the suttas it is frequently linked with mindfulness (sati) in the compound sati-sampajañña, mindfulness and awareness. In the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, awareness (of bodily actions) is included in the section on mindfulness of the body, so we can perhaps conclude that, while it is not different from mindfulness, awareness is rather more specialised in meaning. Mindfulness is general recollectedness, not being scatterbrained; whereas awareness is more precisely keeping oneself under constant observation, not letting one’s actions (or thoughts, or feelings etc.) pass unnoticed.
source
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:42 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.
Oh? How so?
I had presented my reasoning earlier:
Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?
Regards,

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by daverupa » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:25 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
dhamma follower wrote:I was not talking about alteration, but about momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession.
I know you were. And "momentary dhammas rising and falling in rapid succession" is a conceptual fiction.
which is an opinion of yours, an opinion strongly defied by Dependent Origination.

Regards,
Well, paticcasamuppada is a process, while discreet momentary dhammas form an event-series (with concomitant problems to do with continuity). So, in fact, the Buddha's preference for talking in terms of paticcasamuppada (or rather, idapaccayata) - instead of via a theory of innumerable dhammas - is noteworthy in this context. A lot of people think momentary dhammas are what the Buddha was really talking about, but he never actually does so. It's all process-based language, never event-based.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Nyana » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:39 pm

dhamma follower wrote:I had presented my reasoning earlier:
Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?
This sounds to me like an interpretation of experience based on a profusion of mental proliferation.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by alan » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:19 am

More to the point, it assumes the conclusion, which is a logical fallacy.

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daverupa
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by daverupa » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:27 pm

alan wrote:More to the point, it assumes the conclusion, which is a logical fallacy.
:clap:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Dmytro » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:30 pm

Hi Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?
The key feature of Conditioned Arising is that, in full complexity, it is non-linear. Recognition (sanna), feeling (vedana) and will (cetana) happen in parallel, being conditioned by contact (phassa), which requires consciousness (vinnana):

Phuttho bhikkhave vedeti, phuttho ceteti, phuttho sañjānāti...

Contacted, monks, one feels; contacted, one intends; contacted, one recognizes;...

SN35.93

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the linear model of "consciousness moments" is, in my opinion, an oversimplification.

Regards,
Last edited by Dmytro on Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:28 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Dhamma Follower,
dhamma follower wrote:Just consider how much information you can get in a second: seeing someone, knowing the details of his/her face, recognizing who is the person, wanting to avoid, designing a scheme to do it...All of that involve so many mind processes and different sense-doors and kinds of consciousness, in just a second. That much already tells us how quickly dhammas rise and fall. Because consciousness arises dependently on the bases and objects, how many consciousness must rise and fall before all that information is perceived and processed?
The key feature of Conditioned Arising is that, in full complexity, it is non-linear. Recognition (sanna), feeling (vedana) and will (cetana) happen in parallel, being conditioned by contact (phassa), which requires consciousness (vinnana):

Phuttho bhikkhave vedeti, phuttho ceteti, phuttho sañjānāti...

Contacted, monks, one feels; contacted, one intends; contacted, one recognizes;...

SN35.93

http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticca.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the linear model of "consciousness moments" is, in my opinion, an oversimplification.

Regards,
Hi Dmytro,

Of course it is not linear. When citta arises with one object, many cetasikas arise also at the same time. I understand that. But when the object changes, that means it is not the same citta any more, right? Visible object is not the same than sound, smell,...or thoughts. The sanna that arises and recognize someone is not the same than the ones that are are involved in thinking about how to avoid him. Because the objects are many, cittas must be many too.

Regards,

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