Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

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tiltbillings
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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:17 pm

Sylvester wrote:.

What's quite amazing is that the Burmese lineage could arrive at this approach, when it appears that they did not have access to the variant reading.
What the Burmese vipassana lineage had was actual practice, not just theory. These guys were not dummies.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:50 pm

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:What's quite amazing is that the Burmese lineage could arrive at this approach, when it appears that they did not have access to the variant reading.
What the Burmese vipassana lineage had was actual practice, not just theory.
Moreover, anyone who does any form of satipatthana comes to find that as the depth of concentration evolves, verbal formations will be seen as comparatively gross, and ought to be abandoned, even if they had yielded benefits earlier in supporting that concentration in the first place. As someone said in one of these meditation topics recently, the meditation practice (and Dhamma practice in general) is about removing layers, rather than adding them. This also involves removing the supports for what may have previously been useful, but presently serves as a hindrance to further refinement of the mind.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by dhamma follower » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:19 am

beeblebrox wrote:

What would you call something that sees a series of moments rising and falling, in succession? (I.e., not just one moment after another, one at a time, where everything goes down along with it, every time... which would make it impossible to see a series of these moments?) A citta. The object in this case would be an object made up of moments.


:anjali:
It is panna in tandem with sati-sampajana that sees the rise and fall. Citta arises and falls with any object all the time, but if sati-sampajana is not sharp enough, there is no chance for panna to arise and understand the impermanent nature of composed things.

I have discussed how D.O supports the idea of successive rise and fall of dhammas in another thread. It will be pointless to say it again and again.
It's really all about dependent origination... all the way through
If you apply it into this very moment? What you see? seeing rises and falls, hearing rise and falls, feeling rises and falls, thinking rises and falls...It is also the way out of samsara, another important meaning of D.O

But we don't have to agree :-)

Regards,

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:21 am

Samvega wrote:3.4 Sati Imagery

.................Sati must be differentiated from right effort. Sati never actually intervenes with any thought processes. It serves only the role of a detached and aloof observer. The purpose of sati is to make things conscious, not to elminate them................................

...............The reason that Jhana alone is not sufficient by itself for liberating insight is because by its nature of restrictive focus, it inhibits the passive observational qualities of broad awareness needed to become aware of those qualities of experience that lead to insight. This shouldn't be contrued to say that Jhana is detrimental, however, because the abundance of evidence indicates that in fact the opposite is true.
Sati is definitely different from right effort, however sati without right effort is not the path. Right effort has to be there in your meditation, otherwise it becomes a concentration game.

You are correct that the jhana you describe is not sufficient (wrong jhana) for liberating insight. However I cannot find this jhana being described within the suttas. The jhana described in the suttas DOES have broad awareness and DOES allow investigation, discernment and in fact does lead to liberating insight. The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves. It is a bit like right action, we could argue and stretch this part of the path to include 'mercy killing' and then suddenly we have 'access action', which is not really right action but is close enough, so we count that as fulfilling that part of the path. Or we only tell 'white' lies, so we have 'access speech'. Or we end up trying to redefine aspects of the path, so right effort becomes energetic striving or intense concentration becomes viewed as right samadhi. All we get is a wrong path.

Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:25 am

Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
But, of course, it all depends upon what is meant the word jhana. Fortunately, I know of no meditative tradition within the Theravada that rejects right jhana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:36 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
But, of course, it all depends upon what is meant the word jhana. Fortunately, I know of no meditative tradition within the Theravada that rejects right jhana.
I really fail to see the problem, right jhana is the jhana as described in the suttas. If people want to play linguistic games with the suttas to redefine jhana or take commentarial versions of right jhana as their standard then that is their prerogative. If one gives precedence to the suttas without reference to the later interpretations, one can then compare ones own experience with what the Buddha said. If your experience matches up to the suttas then you will know you are on the right track, if your experiences don't match up then the question to be asked is.... 'why'?
I know one or two traditions that do indeed reject right jhana, they do this by their vocal warnings of the 'dangers' and the unnecessariness of jhana and their redefinition of what the Buddha considered 'right' and what they consider nearly right 'access to rightness'. I think it is a strange situation where the noble eightfold path can be so readily redefined.
I come from the viewpoint that the suttas give a fairly clear idea of what the Buddha said. This I believe is true, despite certain issues that may arise due to translation. The suttas have a cohesion and 'taste' that shines through and cannot be hidden by the odd disagreement of translation.

Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:00 am

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
But, of course, it all depends upon what is meant the word jhana. Fortunately, I know of no meditative tradition within the Theravada that rejects right jhana.
I really fail to see the problem, right jhana is the jhana as described in the suttas.
Except what that means in actual practice is described differently by different people.
If one gives precedence to the suttas without reference to the later interpretations, one can then compare ones own experience with what the Buddha said. If your experience matches up to the suttas then you will know you are on the right track,
When one looks at the "vipassana jhanas" that comes out of the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition that is what one sees, and the nice thing about it, it is not a matter of just trying cobble together what the suttas say, it is something that is grounded in terms of actual practice that fits neatly with what the suttas say.
I know one or two traditions that do indeed reject right jhana, they do this by their vocal warnings of the 'dangers' and the unnecessariness of jhana and their redefinition of what the Buddha considered 'right' and what they consider nearly right 'access to rightness'. I think it is a strange situation where the noble eightfold path can be so readily redefined.
Your disgruntlement with the Burmese vipassana tradition is well known here, but unfortunately it is not well grounded in the a knowledge of the actual traditions that you have shown.
I come from the viewpoint that the suttas give a fairly clear idea of what the Buddha said. This I believe is true, despite certain issues that may arise due to translation. The suttas have a cohesion and 'taste' that shines through and cannot be hidden by the odd disagreement of translation.
In other words, as you admit here, there is room for differences of opinions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:02 am

Let me add a further coimment to this:
Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
This comment really has not a thing to do with anything that Samvega posted.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:Let me add a further coimment to this:
Brizzy wrote:The view that jhana is not an integral part of the path to liberating insight is half right, simply because these statements are founded upon a wrong view of jhana. Right jhana is part of the path. We cannot cherry pick parts of the path just to suit our selves.
This comment really has not a thing to do with anything that Samvega posted.
Samvega wrote..............
The reason that Jhana alone is not sufficient by itself for liberating insight is because by its nature of restrictive focus, it inhibits the passive observational qualities of broad awareness needed to become aware of those qualities of experience that lead to insight. This shouldn't be contrued to say that Jhana is detrimental, however, because the abundance of evidence indicates that in fact the opposite is true.
The jhana experience described above is not the experience of jhana as described in the suttas, it is a concentration. Now, to achieve the jhana as described in the suttas, one is already applying the dhamma as taught in the suttas. Why is jhana chosen as specifically insufficient for liberating insight when one could choose right view or right intention or right speech or right action or right effort? Do you get my point? They are ALL necessary.
Personally, I would rather cobble together the suttas to come up with answers, rather than cobble together the commentaries.
How do the 'vipassana jhanas' fit nicely with what the suttas say? I would have thought that the suttas descriptions of jhana fit nicely with what the suttas say(and the nice thing about it is, it is............'something that is grounded in terms of actual practice that fits neatly with what the suttas say.'

Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:06 am

Brizzy wrote:I know one or two traditions that do indeed reject right jhana, they do this by their vocal warnings of the 'dangers' and the unnecessariness of jhana and their redefinition of what the Buddha considered 'right' and what they consider nearly right 'access to rightness'. I think it is a strange situation where the noble eightfold path can be so readily redefined.
I find this strange too. And the jhanas are mentioned so often in the suttas that I find it hard to believe they aren't important.

Spiny

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:40 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Brizzy wrote:I know one or two traditions that do indeed reject right jhana, they do this by their vocal warnings of the 'dangers' and the unnecessariness of jhana and their redefinition of what the Buddha considered 'right' and what they consider nearly right 'access to rightness'. I think it is a strange situation where the noble eightfold path can be so readily redefined.
I find this strange too. And the jhanas are mentioned so often in the suttas that I find it hard to believe they aren't important.

Spiny
Yes, it is indeed strange. The frequency of reference to jhana within the suttas is part of what I mean by 'the cohesion & taste' of the dhamma, found within the suttas. Now, there are many modern day teachers who I admire, who put their own 'spin' in explaining the dhamma. What they do not do, is redefine the sutta teachings beyond recognition and introduce concepts that are outside of sutta/vinaya. When reading forums like this, I sometimes wonder if Buddhaghosa is not more venerated for his precision in teaching 'straightforward' dhamma than is the Buddha himself. The Buddha seems to be portrayed (often by implication) as a less than adequate teacher. The Buddha was the peerless teacher, he does not need his teachings redefined.

Metta

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by bodom » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:42 am

Here is a short 7 minute talk from Bhante Gunaratana that may be of interest:

Why do some teachers warn about practicing jhana?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41NpmB2le3I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Re: Satipatthana: The direct path to realization

Post by Brizzy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:36 pm

bodom wrote:Here is a short 7 minute talk from Bhante Gunaratana that may be of interest:

Why do some teachers warn about practicing jhana?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41NpmB2le3I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Good talk, but then I think Bhante Gunaratana is awesome. Especially awesome is that he has changed his teachings over the years to reflect his own experiences and understanding of the suttas. To be able to re-appraise his own practice and teachings the way he has done is truly inspiring.

Metta

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:55 pm

Brizzy wrote: Samvega wrote..............
The reason that Jhana alone is not sufficient by itself for liberating insight is because by its nature of restrictive focus, it inhibits the passive observational qualities of broad awareness needed to become aware of those qualities of experience that lead to insight. This shouldn't be contrued to say that Jhana is detrimental, however, because the abundance of evidence indicates that in fact the opposite is true.
The jhana experience described above is not the experience of jhana as described in the suttas, it is a concentration. Now, to achieve the jhana as described in the suttas, one is already applying the dhamma as taught in the suttas.
There is nothing wrong with what Samvega wrote, given that in light of the suttas, it is true. Jhanas by themselves will not bring insight and jhanas also, as the suttas plainly state, can the basis for wrong view.
Why is jhana chosen as specifically insufficient for liberating insight when one could choose right view or right intention or right speech or right action or right effort? Do you get my point? They are ALL necessary.
Of course they are all necessary. Maybe the problem is that is because jhana can be difficult to cultivate and maybe it is that they have greater potential far more than the other factors of going wrong.
Personally, I would rather cobble together the suttas to come up with answers, rather than cobble together the commentaries.
While the commentators do not always get it right, I would look to them first before I would look to someone who does not read Pali, whose meditation experience is limited, etc.
How do the 'vipassana jhanas' fit nicely with what the suttas say? I would have thought that the suttas descriptions of jhana fit nicely with what the suttas say(and the nice thing about it is, it is............'something that is grounded in terms of actual practice that fits neatly with what the suttas say.'
Again, the problem is whose interpretation of what the suttas say? Yours? Do you read Pali? Have you read the whole of the Canon, working with it in terms of meditative practice? Also, you -- again -- rather neatly miss the point of the vipassana jhanas.

.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Objection to the Views of Venerable Analayo

Post by Brizzy » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:29 pm

tiltbillings wrote: While the commentators do not always get it right, I would look to them first before I would look to someone who does not read Pali, whose meditation experience is limited, etc.

.
Who is this person?

When did the reading of Pali become a requisite for following the 8 fold path?

As for the vipassana jhana's - yes I admit to confusion. Especially when something called 'nana knowledges' is overlaid onto something called 'vipassana jhana's'. I look to the suttas most days and have not found them yet.

As regards the rest of what you say, it is the same arguments that we have both repeated ad nauseum.

Metta

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Ignorance is an intentional act.

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