Tantric Theravada?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
ricebowl
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by ricebowl » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:45 pm

"Mahaka Sutta: About Mahaka" (SN 41.4), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 2 July 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html . Retrieved on 4 March 2013 (Offline Edition 2013.03.04.11).

Matteo1972
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Matteo1972 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:39 am

Dan74 wrote:I am not knowledgeable about these things, but there seems to be confusion about various things in this thread. Tantra, at least as it is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, is not magic, is not concerned with immortality or special powers, as far as I can tell. Its sole purpose is attaining enlightenment.
Anyone made it ?

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mirco
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mirco » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:15 pm

rowboat wrote:Here is some contact information for Bana Bhante.
These people should be able to help you if there are any translations of Venerable Bana Bhante: rajbanavihara@gmail.com
Thank you, rowboat.

Here is what I got from there: Sermon Of The Ariyasāvaka Sādhanānanda Mahāthera (Banabhante)


Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:46 pm

Nice illustration of a yogavacara monk from Siam in the Ayutthaya period performing some kind of magic:
Yogavacara fire.jpg
Yogavacara fire.jpg (120.29 KiB) Viewed 1877 times
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:20 am

A lersi is a type of theravada tantric?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:45 pm

form wrote:A lersi is a type of theravada tantric?
Lersi or reusii (ฤษี) is just the Thai pronunciation of the Sanskrit ṛṣī (Pali isi), meaning a hermit or sage. He might practise tantric methods, but not necessarily.

Caodemarte
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:37 pm

Dan74 wrote:I am not knowledgeable about these things, but there seems to be confusion about various things in this thread. Tantra, at least as it is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, is not magic, is not concerned with immortality or special powers, as far as I can tell. Its sole purpose is attaining enlightenment.
The term Tantric Theravada is often used for magic, the quest for supernatural powers, and various practices, including forms of meditation, some of which apparently survived from actual Tantric Hinduism and Tantric Buddhism (which predate Theravada in the region). It is a confused term for a confused situation! It must be doubly so for those used to Tibetan Tantric Buddhism.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:56 am

Caodemarte wrote:It is a confused term for a confused situation! It must be doubly so for those used to Tibetan Tantric Buddhism.
The coiners of terms like “Tantric Theravāda” and “Theravāda Tantrism” are following the practice in academic Buddhist and Hindu studies of defining what counts as ‘tantric’ and what does not in a polythetic manner (i.e. based on Wittgenstein’s conception of “family resemblances”) rather than the monothetic way that would be employed by Tibetans.

As Donald Lopez summarizes the approach:
  • Another approach would be to employ the notion of polythetic classification. In monothetic classification, the composition of a conceptual class is determined by the invariable presence of certain common properties found in each and every member of that class. In a polythetic classification, however, no single feature is deemed necessary or sufficient for inclusion in the class. The members of the class do not share a single feature in common, but are grouped together based on the greatest number of features in common, with no a priori decision as to the relative importance of these multiple features. Under a polythetic classification, tantra, instead of being reduced to some essence, would constitute the intersection of certain of a larger number of family resemblances. The features constituting this family serve as descriptions rather than criteria. Among these features, one would immediately include elements such as those listed by Gombrich in his definition above, that is, elements that commonly occur in texts called tantras, such as mantras, mudrās, and maṇḍalas. To these one could quickly add the importance of the guru, abhiṣekha (empowerment), vajra (diamond or thunderbolt), sukha (bliss), sahaja (“together-born”), and siddhis (powers). From here, one could move to traditional characterizations of tantra as a form of practice that is secret, easy, and rapid in its effect, based upon the premise that reality resides in the mundane. In modern studies, tantric texts are described as highly ritualistic, antinomian, and nonspeculative, evincing nonduality and often setting forth an elaborate esoteric physiology of cakras and nāḍīs that give special importance to the genitals.

    Elaborations on Emptiness: Uses of the Heart Sutra. p. 86

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:56 am

Tantric the Tibetan and Taoist style involved the transmutation of libido energy towards higher level. They also have techniques that move chi around the body. Their confirmation signs are very obvious. This is a vast difference from relatively more conservative Theravada meditation approach which I feel have missing elements not explained fully in their canon, leading to many different views.

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mikenz66
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:05 am

form wrote:Tantric the Tibetan and Taoist style involved the transmutation of libido energy towards higher level. They also have techniques that move chi around the body. Their confirmation signs are very obvious. This is a vast difference from relatively more conservative Theravada meditation approach which I feel have missing elements not explained fully in their canon, leading to many different views.
Isn't the point that the "Tantric Theravada" is being used to describe the "less conservative" Theravada approaches? For example, the Dhammakaya approach involves visualisations, Thanissaro Bhikhu talks about energy practices which his teachers explored, and so on.

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Mike

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:32 am

mikenz66 wrote:
form wrote:Tantric the Tibetan and Taoist style involved the transmutation of libido energy towards higher level. They also have techniques that move chi around the body. Their confirmation signs are very obvious. This is a vast difference from relatively more conservative Theravada meditation approach which I feel have missing elements not explained fully in their canon, leading to many different views.
Isn't the point that the "Tantric Theravada" is being used to describe the "less conservative" Theravada approaches? For example, the Dhammakaya approach involves visualisations, Thanissaro Bhikhu talks about energy practices which his teachers explored, and so on.

:heart:
Mike
There will be many different ways people use to categorize Theravada. To me Theravada does suggest very stern looking elder monks that are very conservative. So the term tantric theravada sounds weird to me.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:17 am

form wrote:There will be many different ways people use to categorize Theravada. To me Theravada does suggest very stern looking elder monks that are very conservative. So the term tantric theravada sounds weird to me.
It’s just a shorthand locution. It spares us the inconvenience of having to say: “A socially marginal religious phenomenon, arising within a traditionally Theravadin cultural milieu but sharing a certain family resemblance with Tantrism”.

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:37 am

Dhammanando wrote:
form wrote:There will be many different ways people use to categorize Theravada. To me Theravada does suggest very stern looking elder monks that are very conservative. So the term tantric theravada sounds weird to me.
It’s just a shorthand locution. It spares us the inconvenience of having to say: “A socially marginal religious phenomenon, arising within a traditionally Theravadin cultural milieu but sharing a certain family resemblance with Tantrism”.
Sure Bhante. :)

Is it correct to say tibetan buddhism is a mixture of early Buddhism with braminism and Shamanism?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:24 am

form wrote:Is it correct to say tibetan buddhism is a mixture of early Buddhism with braminism and Shamanism?
Yes, with regard to Brahminism and Shamanism. But the Buddhist component is not early Buddhism, but rather the very late-stage Buddhism of India's monastic universities. Of all the Buddhist nations in Asia, the Tibetans are probably the least well-informed about early Buddhism, largely as a consequence of Atīśa's decree that the Āgama sūtras should not be translated into the Tibetan language.

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:00 am

Dhammanando wrote:
form wrote:Is it correct to say tibetan buddhism is a mixture of early Buddhism with braminism and Shamanism?
Yes, with regard to Brahminism and Shamanism. But the Buddhist component is not early Buddhism, but rather the very late-stage Buddhism of India's monastic universities. Of all the Buddhist nations in Asia, the Tibetans are probably the least well-informed about early Buddhism, largely as a consequence of Atīśa's decree that the Āgama sūtras should not be translated into the Tibetan language.
Oh yes. I forgot they are Mahayana.

And surprisingly they have very detailed instructions on kasina, and theories of transformation of libido.

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