Tantric Theravada?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:27 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:55 am
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:32 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:04 am
Had an interesting time tracking down Tantric Theravada teachers in Bangkok.
This seems to be equating "Thailand" with "Theravada". Religion in Thailand is very diverse.
I am not trying to do anything of the sort, I am just using Thailand as an example of a Theravada country. Many of the heterodox practices in Thailand came from Cambodia, which would seem to imply that Cambodian Theravada is not all that orthodox either.

Actually, orthodoxy is generally a (limiting) mental concept that rarely has a basis in reality.
Ancient Cambodia was ruled by Hindu, Mahayana, and Theravada kings. Cambodian lay Theravada Buddhists mix what they call Brahma religion with Buddhism, and also a bit of shamanistic healing. Educated monks know this but manage to deal with it. Healing and certain ceremonies are conducted by healers called Kru Khmer, but they still practice Theravada and likely were monks at one time. I heard lots of ghost stories when I lived among the Khmer. Thai and Cambodian Buddhism are so similar, I would not be surprised if this also applies to Thailand.
Cambodian Buddhism exists side-by-side with, and to some extent intermingles with, pre-Buddhist animism and Brahman practices. Most Cambodians, whether or not they profess to be Buddhists (or Muslims), believe in a rich supernatural world. When ill, or at other times of crisis, or to seek supernatural help, Cambodians may enlist the aid of a practitioner who is believed to be able to propitiate or obtain help from various spirits. Local spirits are believed to inhabit a variety of objects, and shrines to them may be found in houses, in Buddhist temples, along roads, and in forests.[37]
source
DS

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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 pm

The northern Shan (Thai Yai) monk Kruba Boonchum has recently become more famous following his accurate prediction that 13 boys trapped in a cave will soon be found alive and well. He performed a ceremony to "open the cave" and is widely respected in northern Thailand and Burma. He also has connections to Bhutan and practices in a similar way as Tibetan monks do.

https://www.diri.ac.nz/discover/kruba-boonchum/

https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/mo ... ntion.html

https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/th ... found.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
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mikenz66
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 pm

Chatter moved or deleted. This thread is for serious discussion of tantric practices in a Theravada context.

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Mike

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:21 pm

Pics of weizzas, if anyone knows about their diagrams, I'd be interested in knowing what they mean.
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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:07 pm

Petra Kieffer-Pülz, "Extra canonical Parittas: The Jinapañjara

The Jinapañjara, one of the extra canonical paritta texts of the Theravāda tradition, is transmitted in slightly deviating recensions in Thailand, Burma and Sri Lanka. In the present contribution I edit the text according to all three recensions, translate it, and analyze the deviations in an attempt to trace the development of this paritta.

https://www.academia.edu/30579679/Petra ... 18_231_250
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:40 am

This video about Sak Yant tattoos seems to belong here -



The history is discussed briefly about 12' - 13'30".

There's a short discussion about the video at https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30870 on DWM, which is where I found it (thanks, Greg).

:namaste:
Kim

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:30 am

ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:32 am

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:21 pm
Pics of weizzas, if anyone knows about their diagrams, I'd be interested in knowing what they mean.
My friend, these things are esoteric/mystical. To know the full meaning one has to be initiated and to have them explained by a teacher. If you are interested I can point you in the direction of a couple of serious initiates/practitioners that may be able to explain some of the meanings to you. There are books available too, but as in all mystical traditions...

Here's a starter: https://www.sakyantchiangmai.com/sak-ya ... -meanings/
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

Caodemarte
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:16 pm

Bear in mind that tattoos in SE Asia are usually considered socially unacceptable as a sign of gang membership, spreading superstition (or being uneducated at best), or involvement in black magic. It will be difficult to join a monastery, the police, or the armed forces in most cases. Foreigners spotting “Buddhist” tattoos may be arrested on blasphemy charges. Since traditionally the state theoretically exists to protect Buddhism, the purest form of which is usually identified as the predominant ethnic group, this can also be seen as an insult to the nation/people.

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mikenz66
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:39 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:16 pm
It will be difficult to join a monastery, ...
I don't completely disagree, but you will find monks (such as the Abbot of my local Thai Wat, and some of the high-ranking Thai monks whose pictures are on our walls) with small, but obvious, religious tattoos on their arms (not Buddha images of course - probably Sak Yant, but I haven't paid too much attention).

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Mike

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:25 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Bear in mind that tattoos in SE Asia are usually considered socially unacceptable as a sign of gang membership, spreading superstition (or being uneducated at best), or involvement in black magic. It will be difficult to join a monastery, the police, or the armed forces in most cases. Foreigners spotting “Buddhist” tattoos may be arrested on blasphemy charges. Since traditionally the state theoretically exists to protect Buddhism, the purest form of which is usually identified as the predominant ethnic group, this can also be seen as an insult to the nation/people.
Nope. Not in Thailand.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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mikenz66
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Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:25 pm
Nope. Not in Thailand.
I think you have to be a little nuanced about the type of tattoo and the position in society of the person.

As I said, I've seen eminently respectable monks with tasteful tattoos that I assume are Sak Yant. I have friends with such tattoos, but usually in reasonably hidden places (such as on the back).

But, on the other hand, foreigners turning up with Buddha images on their arm do sometimes run into problems. And I'm sure there are certain gang tattoos that would attract the attention of police to locals...

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Mike

Caodemarte
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Caodemarte » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:25 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Bear in mind that tattoos in SE Asia are usually considered socially unacceptable as a sign of gang membership, spreading superstition (or being uneducated at best), or involvement in black magic. It will be difficult to join a monastery, the police, or the armed forces in most cases. Foreigners spotting “Buddhist” tattoos may be arrested on blasphemy charges. Since traditionally the state theoretically exists to protect Buddhism, the purest form of which is usually identified as the predominant ethnic group, this can also be seen as an insult to the nation/people.
Nope. Not in Thailand.
Oh quite specifically in Thailand. I guess it depends on who you are talking to and what circles you move in and often where. Pleaase note that I am not advising people to get or not get tattoos, but just trying to explain to people what reaction they may get and what they may be perceived as signaling.

Tattoos will generally get the reaction I mentioned in most of traditional polite society. For example, many major monasteries will not allow full ordination to people with tattoos. Some will if tattoos are hidden and not bring the monastery into popular disrepute. Some, especially minor and poor monasteries, will pretend not to notice.

In over simplified and over generalized terms, the monarchy and the Thai state traditionally get their theoretical legitimacy because they protect Buddhism, which protects and is protected by the Thai nation which is identical to the Thai people, although “guest”ethnic groups and allied peoples may be under the protection of the Thai state. These are traditional views and are not held by every single person. However, they permeate society and explain why blasphemy is still considered a crime against Buddhism, the monarchy, the state, and Thai people all at once.

These traditional attitudes are much the same in all Buddhist SE Asia (minus the continuing monarchy). This has not been helpful in the modernization process and the formation of modern governments. It has also encouraged the fusion of Buddhism and an extreme racist, violent nationalism among some monks and lay.

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:49 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:21 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:25 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:16 pm
Bear in mind that tattoos in SE Asia are usually considered socially unacceptable as a sign of gang membership, spreading superstition (or being uneducated at best), or involvement in black magic. It will be difficult to join a monastery, the police, or the armed forces in most cases. Foreigners spotting “Buddhist” tattoos may be arrested on blasphemy charges. Since traditionally the state theoretically exists to protect Buddhism, the purest form of which is usually identified as the predominant ethnic group, this can also be seen as an insult to the nation/people.
Nope. Not in Thailand.
Oh quite specifically in Thailand. I guess it depends on who you are talking to and what circles you move in and often where. Pleaase note that I am not advising people to get or not get tattoos, but just trying to explain to people what reaction they may get and what they may be perceived as signaling.

Tattoos will generally get the reaction I mentioned in most of traditional polite society. For example, many major monasteries will not allow full ordination to people with tattoos. Some will if tattoos are hidden and not bring the monastery into popular disrepute. Some, especially minor and poor monasteries, will pretend not to notice.

In over simplified and over generalized terms, the monarchy and the Thai state traditionally get their theoretical legitimacy because they protect Buddhism, which protects and is protected by the Thai nation which is identical to the Thai people, although “guest”ethnic groups and allied peoples may be under the protection of the Thai state. These are traditional views and are not held by every single person. However, they permeate society and explain why blasphemy is still considered a crime against Buddhism, the monarchy, the state, and Thai people all at once.

These traditional attitudes are much the same in all Buddhist SE Asia (minus the continuing monarchy). This has not been helpful in the modernization process and the formation of modern governments. It has also encouraged the fusion of Buddhism and an extreme racist, violent nationalism among some monks and lay.
Sak Yant are not blasphemous, quite the contrary.

As for ordained monks... I saw plenty of monks tattooed from the soles of their feet to the tops of their heads. Granted I don't know which monastaries they are from.

Many monastaries have a particular sak yant associated with them, so if you are devotee at a particular monastery...

There is also the procedure of getting sak yant with blessed oil or water, so that visually they are temporary. Or some people get them done with a very light coloured ink, instead of the traditional black.

Sak Yant are not decorative tattoos (at least, that is not their primary aim, like in the West).
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

sentinel
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by sentinel » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:26 am

Has anyone ever met any Thai (tantric) monk whom practise vajrayana in Thailand ?
:buddha1:

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