Enlightenment or delusion - How to tell the difference?

[Jaidyn]

Consider this: You start with a deluded mind. When you reach enlightenment; how do you know it is not a delusion?

It is fairly evident some people claiming to be enlightened are actually deluded.

How can I trust my insight to not be a delusion or affected by delusion?

Maybe I end up in a mental institution if I do not know how to tell the difference between insight and delusion, or in a less dramatic case: I end up as deluded as when I started.

[santa100]

Some quick simple test is to check if one is free of "defilements", whether there's still attachment or indulgence to sensual pleasures, whether one's still afflicted by the 3 poisons of greed, anger, delusion, thus incapable of equanimity in front of wealth, sex, fame, tasty food, insults or praise by other people, etc...

[cooran]

Hello Jaidyn, all,

Are there any enlightened people in the world nowadays?
How can I tell who's really enlightened?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... l#arahants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a favourite sutta of mine:
Nava Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SN 46.16 Gilana Sutta: (Factors of Enlightenment) translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Canki Sutta
Towards the end of this sutta, beginning:
[…..’’But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vimamsaka Sutta
At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anaathapindika in Jeta’s grove in Saavatthi. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus from there.
Bhikkhus, by a bhikkhu who could read the thought processes of another, an examination of the Thus Gone One should be done. Is he rightfully enlightened or not or only conscious of it? ………
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=81" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[Jaidyn]

I guess people can “realize” things that are totally wrong.

I do a summary of MN 47 and MN 95 (BBs translation). The last paragraph is the focal point.

MN 47 point on how to evaluate a teacher by examining states cognizable through the eye or through the ear. The inquirer finds out that the teacher behaves well. The inquirer gains faith in the teacher.

MN 95 mentions faith, approval of something, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, reflective acceptance, but these states are only "preservation of truth".

The discovery of the truth is something else: A person visits a teacher and examines him to find out that the teacher has no states of greed, hate, and delusion. He finds that out by examining the bodily and verbal behavior is, and the teacher does not tell "I see" while not seeing and does not act leading to harm to others.

And now comes a list of stages leading to discovery of truth:

* then the pupil places faith in the teacher.
* then visits him and pays respect
* gives ear
* hears the dhamma
* memorizes it and examines the meaning
* when examining he gains reflective acceptance
* zeal springs up
* then he applies his will
* then he scrutinizes
* then he strives
* by resolute striving he realizes with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom

So this was the discovery of truth... (well, BB concludes, it is the attainment of stream-entry. Later in the text; the “final arrival” is described as lying in the repetition, development, and cultivation “of those same things”. “Final arrival”, according to BB, seems to be the attainment of arahantship).

Question: At the last step the pupil has not yet reached supreme truth, and must be deluded to some extent. Some consecutive mind-moments will probably be affected by delusion before the truth is discovered. When the realization of supreme truth is actualized in the mind; how does the pupil know it is not another consecutive mind-moment of delusion? While I found great satisfaction in the texts recommended here, I think the question remains.

[octathlon]

I agree with the OP in that everyone who has ever overcome any type of delusion can easily extrapolate and reach this conclusion. Why should we believe that we have the capability to overcome all delusion? It seems impossible.

But the Buddha said enlightenment is possible. I don't know whether I believe this or not. IMO this is the essence of where faith comes into the picture and makes Buddhism a religion. That and rebirth, which allows sufficient time for the process.

Fortunately, we can still get benefits of practicing Buddhism even without having total faith, lessening the amount of delusion and suffering.

[Otsom]

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[Otsom]

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[rowyourboat]

‎"Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer."
AJAHN CHAH

[kirk5a]

‎"Do not be a bodhisattva, do not be an arahant, do not be anything at all. If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer, if you are anything at all, you will suffer."
AJAHN CHAH

I've read that quotes a bunch of times but it still has potency.

[Jaidyn]

Thanks for the above links and videos, I have to see how it relates to what i writes now! I like the "Investigate, investigate, investigate..."

Following my previous line of reasoning I do not think “enlightenment” is necessarily possible.

If you can not tell the difference between true insight and a delusional mental state, then you will never know if you have become enlightened or just prolonged your delusion. I asume you can not tell the difference.

If you get an “insight” and evaluate it against the idea of enlightenment and ddelusion, then it is not an insight – because you can’t tell if it’s delusion or enlightenment. The process of evaluation is what I call knowledge (and to know). This process of knowledge gives rise to aha-experience, but that is not insight in a real sense, just knowledge. Christians gain aha-insights but these insights can not be true as they are on the wrong path.

This far I have assumed insight has to be bound to the idea of enlightenment and delusion, and I have demanded you to be able to know the difference in your mental process. I now change the meaning of the word enlightenment. Enlightenment is not the knowledge of enlightenment, but, on the other hand, an enlightened process (person) should be able to produce _knowledge_ about the own state of enlightenment – Buddha knew he was enlightened and the knowledge was probably in form of an idea as he could express it (but the process of enlightenment was not bound to the idea in any way).

To reach enlightenment I think the above must be realized deeply, and the path may be found by the minds ability to sense if the mind is affected by attachment – an ability possible to train. To conclude: enlightenment may be possible but not the way we think about it at first.

[befriend]

dont say you cant attain nibbana, you dont know that. you say it likes its a fact. stop listening to your papanca (deluded mental line of thinking), and have some trust that its possible to tell the difference between delusion and nibbana, THATS WHAT A TEACHER IS FOR. if you meditate your whole life, doing charity, renunciation and bhavana and you make all the right progress and have the subsequent insights, and like another poster said craving is abolished then your probably wiser than some fool who says oh i figured out non self, now im an arahant. TRUST THE WISE, stop using common (non) sense.

[Dan74]

Clarity grows along the path, it is not exactly a sudden switch between complete delusion and confusion and then enlightenment, I think.

So with growing clarity it becomes also more evident what remains to be done, what defilements and clinging are still active.

A reliable guide is invaluable, so many experienced people go on retreats with teachers who are their Dhamma seniors and their guides.

[Jaidyn]

Clarity grows along the path, it is not exactly a sudden switch between complete delusion and confusion and then enlightenment, I think.

So with growing clarity it becomes also more evident what remains to be done, what defilements and clinging are still active.

A reliable guide is invaluable, so many experienced people go on retreats with teachers who are their Dhamma seniors and their guides.

It is funny because I am thinking that maybe we easily misinterpret our own mental life when clarity grows: the mind may suddenly seem affected by an increased degree of defilement when in fact it is the same defilement that has always been there, but just more visible because of clear sight. It may as well be that the sensation that defilements have decreased is instead a decrease in awareness (but with skill it should be possible to tell the difference).

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I agree with the OP in that everyone who has ever overcome any type of delusion can easily extrapolate and reach this conclusion. Why should we believe that we have the capability to overcome all delusion? It seems impossible.

But the Buddha said enlightenment is possible. I don't know whether I believe this or not. IMO this is the essence of where faith comes into the picture and makes Buddhism a religion. That and rebirth, which allows sufficient time for the process.

Fortunately, we can still get benefits of practicing Buddhism even without having total faith, lessening the amount of delusion and suffering.

This makes the Buddha very interesting and worth considering in the quest for enlightenment. To me, the situation looks paradoxical from my initial point of view but the Buddha claimed to have reached a kind of enlightenment. Assuming he reached enlightenment: he found a cleaver/skillful way, and/or had a different interpretation of enlightenment (very likely).

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and have some trust that its possible to tell the difference between delusion and nibbana,

Do you assume I have no trust because I participate in this thread? Maybe I have trust or maybe not, but either way it still does not hinder me from reasoning about the possibilities.

befriend: your assumption that I say it as a fact is wrong when you write:

dont say you cant attain nibbana, you dont know that. you say it likes its a fact. stop listening to your papanca (deluded mental line of thinking) […]

Contrary to your assumption I actually express myself open to both possibilities:

[…] I do not think “enlightenment” is necessarily possible. […] I asume you can not tell the difference [between enlightenment and delusion]. […] To reach enlightenment I think […] To conclude: enlightenment may be possible but not the way we think about it at first. […]

There is a good chance you did not read the post you replied to.

[Alex123]

How to distinguish Awakening from Delusion?

By the amount of negative emotions that one still has or can experience. If one is Awakened, then through wisdom all negative emotions with concomitant suffering will be gone and never be able to re-arise . Awakened one through wisdom is always content, peaceful or happy no matter what happens, even if being chopped by bandits. I guess it is up to every person to truthfully examine oneself.

[rowyourboat]

I suspect the closer you get to enlightenment, whether you are enlightened or not becomes less and less important, until it drops away completely..

One thing I am en expert at -not being enlightened(!)- is that anytime you think you are enlightened it does not take long to find out that you are not . If you are stuck in 'i am enlightened' for many years after exposing yourself to all situations and having stopped meditating (and have seen incredible progress over the years-no sudden enlightenment here)- I guess it would be safe to say you might be there. There is a sutta where the Buddha says an arahanth knows that he is enlightened like a man with an amputated limb knows that he does not have a leg anymore ..so I suspect it is quite clear actually. -just not to us!

with metta

Matheesha