Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
PaulD
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Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by PaulD » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:00 am

As stated in the subject heading.

:?:

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Ben
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by Ben » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:13 am

Greetings PaulD

There isn't a "Theravadin view", but the various views of individuals.
And my view, however well informed, should be irrelevant to any sincere practitioner of the Vajrayana.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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PaulD
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by PaulD » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:19 am

Yes, that is what I meant.

It may be irrelevant but I'm still interested.

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Aloka
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by Aloka » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:31 am

Hi PaulD,

"Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?" seems a little vague to me. Could you be more specific, please?


with kind wishes,

Aloka

PaulD
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by PaulD » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:44 am

Aloka wrote:Hi PaulD,

"Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?" seems a little vague to me. Could you be more specific, please?


with kind wishes,

Aloka

Your view. Everyone's view.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 am

Greetings Paul,

Is it the gurus themselves you're interested in, independently of their students... or is the student-guru or "guru worship" dynamic you're interested in?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Zom
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by Zom » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:15 am

My view is quite straightforward: Vajrayana Gurus = Teachers that teach many Dhammas that are actually Adhammas (false Dhammas).

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ground
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by ground » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:04 pm

If I may add my neither-Theravada-nor-Vajrayana view?

The Buddha is my vajrayana guru.

Why is this?
He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the context I am practicing guru yoga.


Kind regards

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tiltbillings
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:10 pm

TMingyur wrote:If I may add my neither-Theravada-nor-Vajrayana view?

The Buddha is my vajrayana guru.

Why is this?
He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the context I am practicing guru yoga.


Kind regards
And i thought you could not say what you thought this passage meant -- at least that is what you said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ground
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by ground » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:20 pm

As I see it I provided an instance how this passage may be applied ... still without being able to explain its meaning ...

kind regards

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tiltbillings
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:27 pm

TMingyur wrote:As I see it I provided an instance how this passage may be applied ... still without being able to explain its meaning ...

kind regards
Well, of course it makes no real sense, especially since "guru yoga" is not something the Buddha taught, and which has no meaning in the context of the Pali suttas, and you seem to be trying to push that passage far beyond the meaning of its context, but then you cannot explain it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ground
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by ground » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:... but then you cannot explain it.
At least not in a linguistically consensual way. So I refrain from even trying. Nothing beneficial could result from it.

Kind regards

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tiltbillings
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:44 pm

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... but then you cannot explain it.
At least not in a linguistically consensual way. So I refrain from even trying. Nothing beneficial could result from it.

Kind regards
Then why have you done this, trot this passage out and then refuse to actually engage it?

And guru yoga? You use this term without explaining it. It is a practice that most people on this forum are not going to have a clue as to what it is. What purpose is served here by trying to tie one unexplained thing to another unexplained thing?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ground
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by ground » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:54 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:... but then you cannot explain it.
At least not in a linguistically consensual way. So I refrain from even trying. Nothing beneficial could result from it.

Kind regards
Then why have you done this, trot this passage out and then refuse to actually engage it?
To provide occasion for effort.
tiltbillings wrote: And guru yoga? You use this term without explaining it. It is a practice that most people on this forum are not going to have a clue as to what it is. What purpose is served here by trying to tie one unexplained thing to another unexplained thing?
The purpose was to playfully interact with the OP of this thread. Linguistic practices. The difference between Theravada and Vajrayana in the context of the practitioners is strongly exaggerated ... from my perspective.

But there is no doubt that the linguistic practices based on the suttas do not comply with those of vajrayana.

Kind regards

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Soe Win Htut
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Re: Theravadan view on Vajrayana Gurus?

Post by Soe Win Htut » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:22 pm

As much as my understanding to Theravadan view to Vajrayana Gurus or any individual, theravadan view must be that viewing should be viewing only upon any guru or individual or someone or something without mental classifying or judgement.

What I mean about Theravadan view is just abandoning the idea/the attitude/mental emphasizing/ascribing of something, someone, or individual as reality or real existence or real permanence.

Viewing should be viewing only or seeing should be seeing only without any mental attachment, grasping, ascribing, confirming upon something, someone, individual or created truths as reality and real importance.


Something, someone, or individual (created truths/relative truths) is not for attaching, grasping, emphasizing, confirming and classifying as reality or real existence or real importance. Something, someone, or individual (created truths/relative truths) are just to be used only, experiencing only, knowing only and viewing only.
Awareness(mental noting) alone is not enough for enlightenment. (Ashin Tejaniya)
Created truths(Sammuti Sacca) are just to be used only, experienced only and known onlyWithout rejecting and attaching them with the idea of reality.
Vipassana (Insight meditation) is changing from the volitional action to action-only, attachment to detachment, misunderstanding to right understanding.
To Learn more....
http://www.thabarwa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, or
http://www.thabarwa.org/guided-insight-mp3-talks/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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