False Gurus: Can a huge mass of people be Conned?

[Nori]

I went to my local shop to eat some Dosa (south Indian dish) and on the wall was a picture of Sai Baba - a Guru ('Spiritual' leader) in India that is beloved by many thousands (or even millions) around the world. His picture is posted everywhere (in homes, shops, taxi cabs, busses, etc.) like he is some God.

I was wondering what he was all about, so later I went to YouTube to see if there were any lectures or speeches of his.

I find this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yblhsr1O4IQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is clear, especially in the BBC video clip at 6:43 that his mouth does not open large enough to extract this golden Lingam.

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This person was clearly a con man. I was shocked and appalled.

Here is this guy talking about God and 'Love', and meanwhile taking everyone's money. Some people really have no conscience it seems.

I was really amazed that he could pull this off to such a large mass of people, and that anyone would even venture to try it. I mean why?


So from this I conclude:

1) Can a person be a con man if he is followed by hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people all over the world, and speak true, wise and compassionate teachings?

Answer: YES!!!

2) Can a person still be a con man if he gave relief (from suffering) to hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people all over the world?

Answer: YES!!!

I am sure about this.

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In regards to the Buddha: Some spoke of the Buddha, during his times, as a person who was homeless, yet still lived like a king.

After he was renown, he was treated with very special treatment: served well prepared dishes, given parks, land and dwellings, etc.

Whenever I read a Sutta that emphasized giving Dana, explicitly emphasizing the fact that by giving Dana to the righteous, that a person earns much merit in the afterlife (or even a higher rebirth), I could not help but to have this very familiar feeling. The same feeling I might get if a catholic priest told me that I would earn much merit with God if I donated to his church.

In the past, I've asked myself, is it possible? Could there be some secret agenda? Would the Buddha, (or can the Buddha,) create some elaborate cosmology (along with rebirth/reincarnation, supernatural phenomena and powers), combined with reasonable teachings that contained some real insight, however, had some hidden agenda, such as setting himself up for a renowned and praised, comfortable life of a Guru? Indeed many guru's during his time was doing just that.

(Actually he was against precisely this..)

Could his enlightenment actually have been this great and elaborate con scheme? In fact maybe the greatest con scheme in all of history?!

Is it possible?

I feel almost ashamed to have even considered these thoughts given the things I have learned from him, but I cannot say I have never considered such possibilities..

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I really don't thinks so, but I cannot say that I can answer this question for sure. But if there were some sort of a con, he would still have to be some great genius. Imagine that!, if it were.

As agreeable, the teachings seem, I still cannot rule out the possibility.

Sometimes I wonder if it were possible for him to believe he was enlightened, but then not really be, in which case he conned himself.

I am sure I am pissing many people off at this point.

I don't really think these were the cases, but I cannot help myself from exploring the possibilities. I am just expressing some thoughts I may have had in the past, though I do not really have them anymore. If I thought he were a phoney, I would not have given so much time and effort into his teachings.


He has much on his side:

1) He was already a wealthy prince (supposedly), so does not have the more common ulterior motive of gaining wealth.

2) His teachings speak for themselves. I have learned many things that have helped me in many ways, (but simultaneously took away much of the temporal enjoyment from my life, which may be the reason for some of my doubts). However, much of the teaching can be confirmed, in the here and now, to be true (in most perspectives). The core aspect of his practice does not require you to believe in anything. It is a 'come try and see for yourself, and do it only if you like', practice; which for me, proves itself more true as time goes on, though I am not free from all doubt.

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I only question a few fundamental concepts: like, whether we should venture to eliminate suffering once and for all (with all it's seemingly harsh consequences due to the attempt), or on the other hand, accept it as an inevitable part of life. (amongst other issues..)

My apologies for expressing my doubts, but sometimes I have mixed feelings due to my ignorance.

Thoughts are welcome.

[Nicro]

I always wondered who that guy was. He is on the wall of some Indian places around here too.

[santa100]

The odds of the Buddha being a con man is zero. Afterall, a con man does what he does to gain something, wealth, fame, status, etc. These were all the attributes the Buddha had when He was a prince, BEFORE He renounced all of those things to seek the path to liberation. As a matter of fact, His enlightenment marked the total and complete freedom from those hindrances.

It's no easy task to eliminate suffering once and for all. That's why the Buddha gave different teachings to different people, according to their capacity. To some, He would teach them to practice generosity and charity to enjoy the good merits of being reborn again as good decent human beings. To others, with some more effort of meditation, could enjoy the fruits of being reborn as devas. To those with utterly strong determination, they can apply the appropriate practice to attain the Four Fruits of Stream Enterer, Once-Return, None-Return, and Arhant. It's a fact that if there's life, there's suffering. There are many stages of the path. THe higher the stage, the more effort one has to put in, but the less the suffering. Life is a big school for one to constantly learn and practice until s/he graduates with the highest degree, which is completely free of suffering.

[Alexei]

Would the Buddha, (or can the Buddha,) create some elaborate cosmology (along with rebirth/reincarnation, supernatural phenomena and powers)

Worse. He could take it from Brahmanism :)

1) He was already a wealthy prince (supposedly), so does not have the more common ulterior motive of gaining wealth.

He wasn't a prince.
http://books.google.com/books?id=IDgZXl ... ce&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If I thought he were a phoney, I would not have given so much time and effort into his teachings.

Maybe you have some secret agenda.

[Vepacitta]

People can have doubts about the Buddha without being accused of having a secret agenda.

And I've wondered about this myself.

It's ok to think thoughts - it's ok to ask questions - It's ok to doubt. At least in my book. He was certainly being respectful.

Organised religion has duped many people over the years - I think it's right to question.

V.

[gavesako]

Guest Post: The Buddha didn't just believe in rebirth, he argued for it

Thai forest monk Thanissaro Bhikkhu, a frequent contributor to Tricycle, sends the following:

It never ceases to amaze me that scholars—who should know better—keep repeating the idea that the Buddha lived in a time when everyone took for granted two principles: (1) that rebirth happened, and (2) that karma had an effect on how rebirth happened.

You wonder why this idea gets repeated so often, because the Pali Canon provides clear evidence to the contrary, evidence that has been available in Western languages for more than a century. (...)

http://www.tricycle.com/blog/guest-post ... -argued-it" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

A huge mass of people have been conned completely by that false Guru called Māra and have failed to arrive at even mundane right view, let alone supramundane right view.

Why is this? In brief, because they have not done their homework. First they need to study the texts, then they need to practise meditation seriously to gain genuine insight knowledge.

Kitagiri Sutta

"Now, monks, there hasn't been that conviction, there hasn't been that visiting, there hasn't been that growing close ... that lending ear ... that hearing of the Dhamma ... that remembering ... that penetration of the meaning of the teachings ... that agreement through pondering the teachings ... that desire ... that willingness ... that contemplation ... that exertion. You have lost the way, monks. You have gone the wrong way, monks. How far have you strayed, foolish men, from this Dhamma & Discipline!

[PeterB]

Thanissaro Bhikkhus over eggs the pudding at various points in his piece.
I have heard no one say that Kamma and Rebirth in some form was universally accepted at that time. Just that they were widely held. Their verity and exact nature were the cause of much hot debate..simply BECAUSE they were well known concepts prior to the birth of Gautama.
He by contrast under eggs the pudding when discussing Jain belief, which has a different view of the mechanics of kamma and rebirth but takes both those concepts as axiomatic.
Such ideas were common, but not universal, currency in Ancient Bharat...The Buddha was operating within a cultural norm.

[Alexei]

People can have doubts about the Buddha

It's exactly what I meant to say. (Sorry for my lame expression.)

without being accused of having a secret agenda.

It wasn't an accusation of doubts, just a bit of humour. Sometimes people have unconscious secret agenda when they follow a Guru.

[Mr Man]

A huge mass of people have been conned completely by that false Guru called Māra and have failed to arrive at even mundane right view, let alone supramundane right view.

Give us a break.

[rowboat]

A huge mass of people have been conned completely by that false Guru called Māra and have failed to arrive at even mundane right view, let alone supramundane right view.

Give us a break.

In the spirit of friendship, Mr Man, I should be the one to remind you that when addressing a bhikkhu there is the expectation at Dhamma Wheel that you will always be respectful with your language please.

[Mr Man]

Hi Rowboat

I would hope that participants in this forum would be respectful whoever they were addressing.

I would add that I actually wasn't directly addressing Bhikkhu Pesala but was commenting on the Ven's comment.

Apologies if you found my comment disrespectful.

[Fede]

Going off topic and into the realm of good-humoured observation - "Guru's" shouldn't have an apostrophe.

I doubt much of what I read (in fact, Tibetan Monks enter into clap-punctuated debates using that very premise as a basis and foundation of their own curiousity-filled evolution towards awakening) but when the grammar's flawed, it's like nails on a blackboard to me...........

pedantic stickler that I am.

[Ben]

Great to see you again, Alex!

[Fede]

Really lovely to be back, Ben!