Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

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ToVincent
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by ToVincent » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
...
If putting one's hand on a burning stove is an inferior (dus) and hard (dus), [even evil-like (dus)] thing to do; why would an arahant do that in the first place.
Arahants don't practice sado-masochism, do they?
Aren't they just trying to avoid inferior, bad and evil-like "contacts"?

You still haven't understood what nibbana means, and the subtle relationship it has with the ending of dukkha.
You might get, in the link below, some (non-exhaustive) recipes, on how to end dukkha.

Nibbana: https://justpaste.it/

________

And I do agree with you: "there are many Buddhist texts that needs to be rewritten".
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:11 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am
If putting one's hand on a burning stove is an inferior (dus) and hard (dus), [even evil-like (dus)] thing to do; why would an arahant do that in the first place.
Why would it be inferior to show the world what you can do? It would be a medical experiment, not a show for the masses
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am
Arahants don't practice sado-masochism, do they?
No sado masochism as they would not feel pain. Sorry. Suffering. Sorry . Dhukka
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am
Aren't they just trying to avoid inferior, bad and evil-like "contacts"?
They are arahants already.Why would they care?
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am
You still haven't understood what nibbana means, and the subtle relationship it has with the ending of dukkha.
You might get, in the link below, some (non-exhaustive) recipes, on how to end dukkha.
Again, I never claimed to know this.
Nor it is my intent to deeply understand this
ToVincent wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:12 am
And I do agree with you: "there are many Buddhist texts that needs to be rewritten".
..
By who?
This is the question

ToVincent
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by ToVincent » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:48 pm

Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:11 pm
...
Ah, ok !
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
I think there are two main issues here that we are misunderstanding
No. "We" are not misunderstanding. It is "you" that appears to be misunderstanding.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
1) whether the word "suffering" is the accurate translation of the word "dhukka"
"Dukkha" has three contextual meanings in the Pali. "Suffering" is sufficient for one of those three contextual meanings.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
2) even if it is not
But "suffering" is accurate enough.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
if a arahant should/would be able to put a hand on stove without issues
The above was already discussed.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
1) as for this point please note that I am not the person who has translated the word dhukka into suffering, other people, experts have used this translation so if the translation is partially wrong, it is their fault, not mine.
There is nothing wrong with "suffering" within one of three contexts.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
And there are a lot of people who have misunderstood the whole thing, assuming that it is a translation mistake.
Yes and it appears you, Pascal2, are one of those people.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
would an arahant be able to put his hand on the stove or not and why? If he has no dhukka left, should he be able to do this or not?
I already posted a video of a monk incinerating himself.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:30 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:53 pm
"suffering" is an English word defined by the English language standards, not by my or your own standards. We cant redefine language according to your own wishes
The Buddha summarized (saṃkhittena) all "dukkha" ("suffering") as "attachment" ("upadana"). No English dictionary does this. We cant redefine Buddhism according to your own wishes. :smile:
There are about 102,000 results if you google "nibbana as the end of suffering". If the translation dukkha <-> suffering is wrong, there are many Buddhist texts that needs to be rewritten
The translation of "suffering" is OK. You seem to not understand attachment is suffering.

In other words, the 1st noble truth does not teach: “There is suffering”. Instead, the 1st noble truth teaches: “Suffering is this”. The 1st noble truth is a DIAGNOSIS of what suffering truly is.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
I think there are two main issues here that we are misunderstanding
No. "We" are not misunderstanding. It is "you" that appears to be misunderstanding.
Oh, OK.. let' s see.
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
1) whether the word "suffering" is the accurate translation of the word "dhukka"
"Dukkha" has three contextual meanings in the Pali. "Suffering" is sufficient for one of those three contextual meanings.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
2) even if it is not
But "suffering" is accurate enough.
OK
We can then agree that, at least in your opinion, the English word "suffering" is a decent translation of the Pali (?) word "Dhukka
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
if a arahant should/would be able to put a hand on stove without issues
The above was already discussed.
Yes, but the discussion hasnt reached a conclusion (yet). So we are still discussing
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
1) as for this point please note that I am not the person who has translated the word dhukka into suffering, other people, experts have used this translation so if the translation is partially wrong, it is their fault, not mine.
There is nothing wrong with "suffering" within one of three contexts.
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
And there are a lot of people who have misunderstood the whole thing, assuming that it is a translation mistake.
Yes and it appears you, Pascal2, are one of those people.
Actually, no.
I am not a translator of the Buddhist scriptures so it is not up to me to decide whether "suffering" is a correct translation for "dhukka".
Other people (you and ToVincent I believe) seemed to suggest that the word "suffering " could have not been a proper translation for "dhukka".
If this was the case, I tried to say, then a lot of people may have misunderstood since in many sites you seem to read differently.
Now that we have clarified that "suffering" is indeed a decent (good?) translation for "dhukka" we can move on
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:30 am
would an arahant be able to put his hand on the stove or not and why? If he has no dhukka left, should he be able to do this or not?
I already posted a video of a monk incinerating himself.
True.
But this doesnt prove much. As apparently when someone puts himself on fire, the fire immediately burns (or more or less immediately) the nerves ending therefore pain is (according to some sources) limited.
Non-Buddhists have also put themselves on fire.
A different thing would be to have a source of pain that we know cant be beared by most people.
In this case the reaction that a monk would have in such situation could be interesting
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:32 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:33 am
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:30 am

The Buddha summarized (saṃkhittena) all "dukkha" ("suffering") as "attachment" ("upadana"). No English dictionary does this. We cant redefine Buddhism according to your own wishes. :smile:
There are about 102,000 results if you google "nibbana as the end of suffering". If the translation dukkha <-> suffering is wrong, there are many Buddhist texts that needs to be rewritten
The translation of "suffering" is OK. You seem to not understand attachment is suffering.

In other words, the 1st noble truth does not teach: “There is suffering”. Instead, the 1st noble truth teaches: “Suffering is this”. The 1st noble truth is a DIAGNOSIS of what suffering truly is.
Again, there is a problem in considering (only?) the "suffering" as being "attachment" as
1) this is a very general and broad definition that it is difficult to disprove or prove or test . How would you scientifically check if a monk is attached to anything?
2) Many people would not agree that suffering and attachment are the same thing

So in order to properly test "suffering" we must find a way to check whether there is suffering (or not) that is simple and straightforward.
I would say that my suggestion to ask the monk to put his hand on fire satisfies this conditions

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
In other words, the 1st noble truth does not teach: “There is suffering”. Instead, the 1st noble truth teaches: “Suffering is this”. The 1st noble truth is a DIAGNOSIS of what suffering truly is.
Again, there is a problem in considering (only?) the "suffering" as being "attachment"
Its not a "problem". To the contrary, that attachment is suffering is what the Buddha appeared to literally teach.
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
1) this is a very general and broad definition that it is difficult to disprove or prove or test .
Wrong. Seriously wrong. Gravely wrong. Completely wrong.
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
So in order to properly test "suffering" we must find a way to check whether there is suffering (or not) that is simple and straightforward. I would say that my suggestion to ask the monk to put his hand on fire satisfies this conditions
Physical pain is not suffering in Buddhism. This idea is pointless. Bye. :hello:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
In other words, the 1st noble truth does not teach: “There is suffering”. Instead, the 1st noble truth teaches: “Suffering is this”. The 1st noble truth is a DIAGNOSIS of what suffering truly is.
Again, there is a problem in considering (only?) the "suffering" as being "attachment"
Its not a "problem". To the contrary, that attachment is suffering is what the Buddha appeared to literally teach.
I beg not to agree.
It can be factually be disproven that many people, who are attached to their wives/husbands/children are not necessarily suffering.
At least not at all times
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
1) this is a very general and broad definition that it is difficult to disprove or prove or test .
Wrong. Seriously wrong. Gravely wrong. Completely wrong.
Oh, OK.
Then find an easy and objective way to test if someone is "attached" to something or not
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
So in order to properly test "suffering" we must find a way to check whether there is suffering (or not) that is simple and straightforward. I would say that my suggestion to ask the monk to put his hand on fire satisfies this conditions
Physical pain is not suffering in Buddhism. This idea is pointless. Bye. :hello:
If physical pain is NOT suffering and you are (I assume) a Buddhist, then I kindly invite you to place your hand on a stove.
And NOT suffer when you do this

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:35 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:43 am
If physical pain is NOT suffering and you are (I assume) a Buddhist, then I kindly invite you to place your hand on a stove. And NOT suffer when you do this
Irrelevant.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:35 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:43 am
If physical pain is NOT suffering and you are (I assume) a Buddhist, then I kindly invite you to place your hand on a stove. And NOT suffer when you do this
Irrelevant.
How can a discussion about suffering is irrelevant when we talk about Buddhism, whose goal is the end of sufferning?
If, As you said, according to you physical pain is not suffering fur Buddhists, then they should be able to endure physical pain without suffering
It is easy to say that this is not the case
For non-enlightened people (at least) physical pain is suffering

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:13 am

It is easy to see when someone is attached to views. Again and again they get involved in contentious debates.

I am currently editing the Pasūra Sutta to add to my website.

The Commentary gives the lead-up to this discourse with the wanderer Pasūra who would set up a Rose-apple branch as a banner, challenging anyone to debate with him. Venerable Sāriputta took up the challenge and defeated him. Pasūra ordained under Lāḷudāyī Thera because he was pleased with his physical appearance, and easily defeated him in debate. Puffed up with pride he dared to debate with the Buddha, but when he came to his presence he was dumb-struck and could not speak at all.

The Buddha taught the Pasūra Sutta on this occasion for the benefit of the multitude. I see no mention of the discourse benefiting Pasūra, but presumably it was of benefit to the multitude,
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DarrenM
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DarrenM » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:16 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:43 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm

Again, there is a problem in considering (only?) the "suffering" as being "attachment"
Its not a "problem". To the contrary, that attachment is suffering is what the Buddha appeared to literally teach.
I beg not to agree.
It can be factually be disproven that many people, who are attached to their wives/husbands/children are not necessarily suffering.
At least not at all times
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
1) this is a very general and broad definition that it is difficult to disprove or prove or test .
Wrong. Seriously wrong. Gravely wrong. Completely wrong.
Oh, OK.
Then find an easy and objective way to test if someone is "attached" to something or not
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:52 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:38 pm
So in order to properly test "suffering" we must find a way to check whether there is suffering (or not) that is simple and straightforward. I would say that my suggestion to ask the monk to put his hand on fire satisfies this conditions
Physical pain is not suffering in Buddhism. This idea is pointless. Bye. :hello:
If physical pain is NOT suffering and you are (I assume) a Buddhist, then I kindly invite you to place your hand on a stove.
And NOT suffer when you do this
Hi Pascal, my understanding comes from SN36.6 The Dart. The Buddha seems to say here that painful bodily feeling felt detached from mental painful feeling is not suffering. A noble disciple still feels painful feeling, but does not “sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.”

Whereas an ordinary worlding when feeling a painful feeling he “sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.” As a result he feels aversion towards the painful feeling, seeks delight in sensual pleasure and lust for a pleasant feeling, all being mental. Feeling this painful feeling attached “ This, bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed worldling who is attached to birth, aging, and death; who is attached to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is attached to suffering, I say.”

So I guess a way to tell if someone is ‘suffering’ from a painful feeling, ie burning their hand, would be to see if the person “sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught”. Problem is there may be ordinary wordlings who can withstand painful bodily feelings, does this mean they have no painful mental feeling?

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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DarrenM » Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:25 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:53 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:35 am
Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:43 am
If physical pain is NOT suffering and you are (I assume) a Buddhist, then I kindly invite you to place your hand on a stove. And NOT suffer when you do this
Irrelevant.
How can a discussion about suffering is irrelevant when we talk about Buddhism, whose goal is the end of sufferning?
If, As you said, according to you physical pain is not suffering fur Buddhists, then they should be able to endure physical pain without suffering
It is easy to say that this is not the case
For non-enlightened people (at least) physical pain is suffering
Physical pain is a necessary condition in this circumstance, but is it the suffering?

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DooDoot
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by DooDoot » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:30 am

Pascal2 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:53 am
How can a discussion about suffering is irrelevant when we talk about Buddhism...
I have not noticed you talk about Buddhism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

Pascal2
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by Pascal2 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:30 pm

DarrenM wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:16 am
Hi Pascal, my understanding comes from SN36.6 The Dart. The Buddha seems to say here that painful bodily feeling felt detached from mental painful feeling is not suffering. A noble disciple still feels painful feeling, but does not “sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. He feels one feeling—a bodily one, not a mental one.”

Whereas an ordinary worlding when feeling a painful feeling he “sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. He feels two feelings—a bodily one and a mental one.” As a result he feels aversion towards the painful feeling, seeks delight in sensual pleasure and lust for a pleasant feeling, all being mental. Feeling this painful feeling attached “ This, bhikkhus, is called an uninstructed worldling who is attached to birth, aging, and death; who is attached to sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; who is attached to suffering, I say.”
I think we can agree on this
DarrenM wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:16 am
So I guess a way to tell if someone is ‘suffering’ from a painful feeling, ie burning their hand, would be to see if the person “sorrows, grieves, and laments; he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught”.
Exactly
DarrenM wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:16 am
Problem is there may be ordinary wordlings who can withstand painful bodily feelings, does this mean they have no painful mental feeling?
Precisely. This is why it is needed to find a painful body feeling that can not be withstood by an ordinary wordlings and see if the monk can withstand this. My idea is that putting a hand on the stove generate a painful feeling that can not be withstood by an ordinary wordling. If the monk can withstand such painfuol feeling with easiness this may indicate that he is free from suffering, while receiving a painful feeling

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SDC
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Re: Rebirth admission would collapse modern science

Post by SDC » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:43 pm

It is natural for broad topics to diverge from the OP, but if there is no further interest in discussing the original topic, perhaps members should just move along instead of letting this become a free-for-all. Please be mindful of the OP and the Terms of Service. Thank you.

:focus:

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