non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:02 am

drun wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:40 am
I posted the original Pali. Anybody can see that. Is not a false.
As I posted, the word 'sankhara' is extremely broad in Buddhism therefore often what the translation should be in a certain context can be the cause of confusion.

The verse you posted is as follows:
Strive and cut off the stream, remove desire, brahmin, knowing the destruction of the sankharam [plural], be one who knows that which is not made, brahmin.

https://suttacentral.net/dhp383-423/en/anandajoti
Now Dhammapada 154 unambiguously says:
O housebuilder, now you are seen! You will not build the house again:
all your rafters have been broken, and the ridgepole has been destroyed,
my mind has reached the unconditioned, and craving’s end has been achieved
Since Dhp 154 says the unconditioned is the destruction of craving; the word "sankhara" in Dhp 383 must mean "mental forming" or "mental conditioning" rather than the five aggregates.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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cappuccino
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:06 am

DooDoot wrote: the word "sankhara" in Dhp 383 must mean "mental forming" or "mental conditioning" rather than the five aggregates.
why must it?

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:09 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:06 am
why must it mean "mental" rather than "physical" ??
i already explained this. Consciousness, as an aggregate, cannot "know" the destruction of the aggregates. Also, as I said, the unconditioned is defined as the destruction of craving.

to add, in SN 22.81, regarding/assuming/imagining an aggregate to be self is said to be a "sankhara".
they regard form as self.
rūpaṃ attato samanupassati.

But that regarding is just a saṅkhāro
Yā kho pana sā, bhikkhave, samanupassanā saṅkhāro so.

And what’s the source, origin, birthplace, and root of that conditioned phenomenon?
So pana saṅkhāro kiṃnidāno kiṃsamudayo kiṃjātiko kiṃpabhavo?

When an uneducated ordinary person is struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, craving arises.

Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa uppannā taṇhā;

That saṅkhāro is born from that.

tatojo so saṅkhāro.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.81/en/sujato
The above says "sankhara" is born from craving; just as the Dhammapada says the unconditioned (visankhara) is the end of the birth of craving.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:22 am

DooDoot wrote: as I said, the unconditioned is defined as the destruction of craving.
that's but one definition

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:33 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:25 am
befriend wrote: I agree with drun.
what exactly are you agreeing with?

I agree with cappuccino, asking that question.
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:24 am

drun wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:23 am
...
...
The self intended in western culture is different from the conventional idea of the self in India. the Self, is permanent eternal, etc
skanda are not. Self in western culture is not always the same, nevertheless is always the same, and is aware of things, of living, etc
So, obviously, the Buddhas, and Awakened Ones, can talk about Nirvana, teach and so on, since they, so to say, came back from it!
Otherwise, Nirvana, would be non returning place, and no one would be here now, talking about it, because no one would have came back to tell us about it, it would have been then like a black hole. But, some how, Buddhas, retain a special consciousness, a state of mind, which is, thousands times, saied to be inconceiveble,and they had informed us of such a state of bliss.

Chinda sotaṁ parakkamma – kāme panuda brāhmaṇa
saṁkhārānaṁ khayaṁ ñatvā – akataññū’ si brāhmaṇa. (383 Dhammapada)

Strive and cleave the stream.
Discard, O brāhmaṇa, sense-desires.
Knowing the destruction of aggregates,
be, O brāhmaṇa, a Knower of the Unmade(Nibbāna).



Mind
  • reaches its purest state
    • unconditioned
      luminous
      radiant
      clear
      free of all defilements
    • Nirvana
      • true Self



  • for complex reasons Mahayana too found a ready home




from Dhammakaya Movement: wikipedia
True Self[edit]
See also: Ātman (Buddhism)
Nirvana as True Self[edit]



  • According to the Dhammakaya Movement, the Buddha made the discovery that nirvana is the true Self (Pali: attā). The movement calls this true self the Dhammakāya, the spiritual essence.[71][72] The Movement believes that this essence of the Buddha and Nirvana exist as a literal reality within each individual.[73][74][24] The not-self teaching (Pali: anattā) is considered by the movement a means to let go of what is not the self, to attain the true self.[68] According to Buddhist studies scholar Paul Williams,

  • "[Dhammakaya] meditations involve the realization, when the mind reaches its purest state, of an unconditioned "Dhamma Body" (dhammakaya) in the form of a luminous, radiant and clear Buddha figure free of all defilements and situated within the body of the practitioner. Nirvana is the true Self, and this is also the dhammakaya." [28]
    According to proponents of the movement such as Luang Por Sermchai, it tends to be scholars who hold the view of absolute non-self, whereas "several distinguished forest hermit monks" such as Luang Pu Sodh, Ajahn Mun and Ajahn Maha Bua hold Nirvana as true self, because they have "confirmed the existence of a Higher or Real Self (attā)" by their own realizations.[81][82] He further states that Nirvana cannot be not-self because it not a compounded and conditioned phenomenon.[81] Williams summarizes the views of Luang Por Sermchai and states that these ways of reading Buddhism in terms of "... a true Self certainly seem to have been congenial in the East Asian environment, and hence flourished in that context where for complex reasons Mahayana too found a ready home".
.


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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:10 pm

Let's not get too into Wat Phra Dhammakāya for convenient nirvāṇa = true self doctrines. If you really want a "true self" smuggled into your "nirvāṇa," you can go to certain Mahāyānika sects. What you get will still be closer to Theravāda than anything Wat Phra Dhammakāya churns out from its endless cesspools of New Age mediocrity.

They resemble Mahāyāna on the surface, but are more like Manichaeism when you go deeper.

The Dhammakāyas of Light locked in eternal war against the Dhammakāyas of Darkness...

It sounds like a Hollywood blockbuster.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by equilibrium » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:08 am
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 am
it's about self (no-self)
Its irrelevant. There is really not much difference between no-self and not-self. For example, the Buddha said things are empty of self. Empty of self or without self or no self is not much different......
No-self is annihilation based on delusion.
Not-self is transient.....breaking through from the conditioned to the unconditioned via the middle-way.....hence “delusion“ is broken through under DO.
Empty of self isn’t annihilation.....if it were, there would be no experience of Nibbana!

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:23 pm

the Blessed One wrote:If I … were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?

And if I … were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered … would become even more bewildered:
'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'
:anjali:

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:42 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:10 pm
Let's not get too into Wat Phra Dhammakāya for convenient nirvāṇa = true self doctrines. If you really want a "true self" smuggled into your "nirvāṇa," you can go to certain Mahāyānika sects. What you get will still be closer to Theravāda than anything Wat Phra Dhammakāya churns out from its endless cesspools of New Age mediocrity.

They resemble Mahāyāna on the surface, but are more like Manichaeism when you go deeper.

The Dhammakāyas of Light locked in eternal war against the Dhammakāyas of Darkness...

It sounds like a Hollywood blockbuster.


Generally agreed, i think.

However, I do appreciate their courageousness to explicitly use "true self" without being continually eel-wiggling behind "Hey! Buddha only said not-self!" while being under the eternal shadow of the Almighty Self.


I'm glad this thread is under "connection to other paths".
Here is more of what other-pathers say:


Viññanam Anidassanam, Self, Ajahn Mun (a Thai forest monk), Maha Parinirvana Sutra, Mahayana teachings, tying up all the loose ends
  • Nirvana is described as possessing the 4 qualities of Permanance, Bliss, Self & Purity
  • the nature of Nibbana as being Viññanam Anidassanam, or Consciousness without Feature
  • Ajahn Mun's description of the Unconditioned (Vimutti) state is very similar to the Buddha's description of "Consciousness Without Feature" in the Kevatta Sutta.
  • the listeners were not ready to accept the Mahayana teachings.
  • But in the Maha Parinirvana Sutra, all these loose ends are explained in detail.
  • What is called the "consciousness without feature" in the Pali Canon is none other than the Dharmakaya in the Mahayana scriptures...
  • The fact that Ajahn Mun could not understand how the Buddha & the past Arahants could still visit him after his enlightenment shows that the fruit of Arahantship is still far from that of the omniscient Samma Sambuddhas.
  • What we understand from the term "anupadisesa nibbana" or nibbana without remainder is also not the true picture.
In the Maha Parinirvana Sutra, Nirvana is described as possessing the 4 qualities of Permanance, Bliss, Self & Purity. Most who learn from the Pali Canon can understand why Nirvana is permanant, blissful & pure, but being so used to the concepts of Anicca (Impermanance), Dukkha (Suffering) & especially Anatta (No-Self), they find it difficult to grasp what did the Buddha mean when he said Nirvana is Self.

The Pali Canon also mentioned that the nature of Nibbana as being Viññanam Anidassanam, or Consciousness without Feature. In the Suttas, the Buddha was famous in his refusal to answer the query of what happens to Him after his Parinibbana or Final Nibbana. All that is mentioned is this "Consciousness Without Feature", nothing more. This term is best explained as being a non-active state of being so vast & subtle that it is beyond description.

This was why Ajahn Mun (1870-1949 a contemporary Thai forest monk who has attained Arahantship in his lifetime) was very disturbed by the visits from the Buddha and Arahants after his enlightenment. His immediate puzzlement was how a Buddha who has crossed over to Anupadisesa Nibbana (Nibbana without remainder) could possibly interact with our Conditioned Reality (this story is related in his biography, "A Heart Released"). Ajahn Mun's description of the Unconditioned (Vimutti) state is very similar to the Buddha's description of "Consciousness Without Feature" in the Kevatta Sutta.

The Buddha did not say what happens to him after Parinirvana bcos at that time the Kevatta Sutta was expounded, the listeners were not ready to accept the Mahayana teachings. But in the Maha Parinirvana Sutra, all these loose ends are explained in detail. What is called the "consciousness without feature" in the Pali Canon is none other than the Dharmakaya in the Mahayana scriptures, except that consciouness is already transformed into the 4 Buddha Wisdoms (Complete reflectivity, Perfect equanimity, Wonderous observation & Infallible success) and thus cannot be called consciousness any more.

The fact that Ajahn Mun could not understand how the Buddha & the past Arahants could still visit him after his enlightenment shows that the fruit of Arahantship is still far from that of the omniscient Samma Sambuddhas. What we understand from the term "anupadisesa nibbana" or nibbana without remainder is also not the true picture. Ultimate reality encompasses both the conditioned & the unconditioned, and thus cannot be separated into "with remainder" or "without remainder". That nibbana that can be separated is not the true Nibbana, but what the Mahayana Sutras described as an "illusionary city" for the Savakas (disciples) & Paccekas (solitary buddhas) to rest temporarily in because they do not have the aptitude to aim directly for the highest goal - Buddhahood. Nirvana
:heart:
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:49 pm




Hello,
cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:40 pm
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism
If you say no self

then you're conforming with those who are exponents of annihilationism

:shrug:


However: :tongue:
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:12 pm
I agree there is no self

I thought not-self was a better term, never mind





Anyway, Viññanam Anidassanam is taken to be as Consciously Self-ish Nirvana by other-pathers. Nirvana


:heart:
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:49 am

there is no kind of sameness to who we are


we are changing for better or worse

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:52 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:49 am
there is no kind of sameness to who we are


we are changing for better or worse


Anyway, I still regard and respect you as one of the more consistent persons on DW.

I thought your response [to my :tongue:] would be something like [probably in a much more concise wordings]:
  • Actually, I myself never have given much emphasis on "self".

    However, "Viññanam Anidassanam" or "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around" or "Soul" is a different matter.

    However, it's better to leave the "Soul" alone. Shall we?


Change for the better is, umm, better, of course.

:heart:
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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by cappuccino » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:09 am

thanks…
Dictionary wrote:"in theory, things can only get better; in practice, they may well become a lot worse"
Last edited by cappuccino on Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: non-Theravada ideas about Viññanam Anidassanam

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:59 am

equilibrium wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm
No-self is annihilation based on delusion.
No its not. The Buddha never said this. As I already said, the annihilation view is a self-view. You are totally confused. Allow me to quote the scholar monk Ven. Sujato:
To be clear, the annihilationist view is that there is a self, but that self is destroyed (usually at the time of death). Clearly this is not what we mean when we say in English that “the self does not exist”.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on ... gies/11836
:candle:
equilibrium wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm
Not-self is transient.....breaking through from the conditioned to the unconditioned via the middle-way.....hence “delusion“ is broken through under DO.
Meaningless fluffy words. The Buddha never taught there is a transient self.
equilibrium wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm
Empty of self isn’t annihilation.....if it were, there would be no experience of Nibbana!
Self doesn't experience Nibbana.

:roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:07 am, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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