HH Dalai Lama

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
markandeya
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

HH Dalai Lama

Post by markandeya » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm

Quoted from HH

“We may be conscious on a sensory level, but learning takes place on a mental level,” he continued, “which is why it’s important to pay attention to our mental consciousness. We need to examine our consciousness at a deeper level than our waking state, dominated as it is by sensory experience. Consciousness is subtler when we dream and there are no external sensory distractions. In deep sleep it is even subtler, but the subtlest consciousness manifests at the time of death. Indeed there are some people who are able to access this level of consciousness and their bodies remain fresh for a time after clinical death has taken place. Scientists are investigating this phenomenon to understand what is going on.

“On a sensory level consciousness is related to pleasing sights, sounds, smells, tastes and aspects of touch, including sex. But anger and loving kindness are not sensory experiences. They take place on the level of the mind. Modern education tends to pay more attention to material goals and sensory experience. Although all religious traditions teach about love, tolerance and so forth, in India the longstanding practices for developing a calmly abiding mind (shamatha) and analytical insight (vipashyana) have given rise to a thorough understanding of the workings of the mind and emotions.

:anjali:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:21 am

markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
We need to examine our consciousness at a deeper level than our waking state
"Our consciousness" or the "element of consciousness"? The Pali scriptures appear to instruct to examine "consciousness" and to abandon the idea of "our consciousness", as follows:
Sir, how is a mendicant qualified to be called ‘astute, an inquirer/examiner'?

There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness.

When a mendicant knows and sees these six elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
Suppose, bhikkhus, that a magician or a magician’s apprentice would display a magical illusion at a crossroads. A man with good sight would inspect it, ponder it, and carefully investigate it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in a magical illusion? So too, bhikkhus, whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully examines it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in consciousness?

Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards...consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It is liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/bodhi
Consciousness is not yours. Abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time.

https://suttacentral.net/mn22/en/bodhi
:alien:
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
the subtlest consciousness manifests at the time of death.
Evidence for this? MN 43 says:
What’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling?

When someone dies, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled; their vitality is spent; their warmth is dissipated; and their [five physical sense organ] faculties have disintegrated. When a mendicant has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, their physical, verbal, and mental processes have ceased and stilled. But their vitality is not spent; their warmth is not dissipated; and their faculties are very clear. That’s the difference between someone who has passed away and a mendicant who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
:alien:
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
Indeed there are some people who are able to access this level of consciousness and their bodies remain fresh for a time after clinical death has taken place. Scientists are investigating this phenomenon to understand what is going on.
How would subtle consciousness or "knowing" be related to the preserving the physical body (rupa) & the life force (jiva)? It would appear possible, the yogis who wish to generate "faith" in ordinary people, such as Jesus of Nazareth, might have been able to enter the Cessation of Perception & Feeling; towards which the outside ordinary observer believes the physical body to be dead because of no discernible breathing. Yogic Hindu tricks. The Pali suttas say the Lord Buddha prohibited such witchcraft, as follows:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Nalanda in Pavarika's mango grove. Then Kevatta the householder approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, this Nalanda is powerful, both prosperous and populous, filled with people who have faith in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One were to direct a monk to display a miracle of psychic power from his superior human state so that Nalanda would to an even greater extent have faith in the Blessed One :shock: ."

When this was said, the Blessed One said to Kevatta the householder, "Kevatta, I don't teach the monks in this way: 'Come, monks, display a miracle of psychic power to the lay people clad in white.'" :meditate:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:alien:
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
On a sensory level consciousness is related to pleasing sights, sounds, smells, tastes and aspects of touch, including sex. But anger and loving kindness are not sensory experiences. They take place on the level of the mind.
In the teachings of the Buddha, the mind is also a "sensory experience". Possibly, HHDL is mixing up the terms "sensual" and "sensory".
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
Modern education tends to pay more attention to material goals and sensory experience.
So is HHDL suggesting here to return to the uneducated primitive feudal society of Tibet; of Masters & peasant serfs? :shrug:
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
Although all religious traditions teach about love, tolerance and so forth, in India the longstanding practices for developing a calmly abiding mind (shamatha) and analytical insight (vipashyana) have given rise to a thorough understanding of the workings of the mind and emotions.
Mental calm (shamatha) and analytical insight (vipashyana) appear to be sensory experiences. :roll:
i “‘The six internal (sense) bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the eye-base, the ear-base, the nose-base, the tongue-base, the body-base, and the mind-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six internal bases should be understood.’ This is the first set of six.

ii “‘The six external (sense) bases should be understood.’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? There are the form-base, the sound-base, the odour-base, the flavour-base, the tangible-base, and the mind-object-base. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six external bases should be understood. ’ This is the second set of six.

iii “‘The six classes of (sense) consciousness should be understood. ’ So it was said. And with reference to what was this said? Dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on the ear and sounds, ear-consciousness arises; dependent on the nose and odours, nose-consciousness arises; dependent on the tongue and flavours, tongue-consciousness arises; dependent on the body and tangibles, body-consciousness arises; dependent on the mind and mind-objects, mind-consciousness arises. So it was with reference to this that it was said: ‘The six classes of consciousness should be understood.’ This is the third set of six.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/bodhi
:alien:
markandeya wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:44 pm
Quoted from HHDL :anjali:
An impression is HHDL's "connection" to the Pali Path is merely a connection of "semantics"; in using the same words (such as "consciousness", "sensory", "mind", "samatha", "vipassana", etc) but imputing a different meaning or definition upon those same words. It similar to Jews, Brahmins, Xtians and Muslims have different ideas about the same word "God".

:candle:

Garrib
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by Garrib » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:01 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:21 am
"Our consciousness" or the "element of consciousness"? The Pali scriptures appear to instruct to examine "consciousness" and to abandon the idea of "our consciousness", as follows:
True, but to be fair, the Pali scriptures also seem to suggest that it is sometimes appropriate to use common terminology (convention).

DN9 (Sujato): "These are the world’s usages, terms, expressions, and descriptions, which the Realized One uses without misapprehending them."

DooDoot wrote: In the teachings of the Buddha, the mind is also a "sensory experience". Possibly, HHDL is mixing up the terms "sensual" and "sensory".
Again, 'sensory' experience is generally thought of as pertaining to the 5 physical senses. I have heard Theravada Buddhist teachers speak this way as well - a charitable (and in my estimation, correct) interpretation of HHDL here would be that he indeed is familiar with the Buddha's teachings on the 6 senses, but is making a useful distinction between mental activities and physical sense experience.

markandeya
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:33 am

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:16 am

The flowers in the garden have beautiful fragrance.

My neighbor is picking them, chopping them up looking for the scent.

:hug:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:29 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:01 am
Again, 'sensory' experience is generally thought of as pertaining to the 5 physical senses.
Really? Where? The suttas often refer to the five strands of sensual pleasures rather than the five strands of sensory experience. I think you need to provide some sutta support for the claims above.
Garrib wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:01 am
I have heard Theravada Buddhist teachers speak this way as well ...
Maybe those Theravada teachers are equally mistaken.
markandeya wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:16 am
The flowers in the garden have beautiful fragrance.
Maybe but HHDL appeared to encouraging the abandoning of such sensuality or sensory indulgences. :|

Garrib
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by Garrib » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:14 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:29 am

Really? Where? The suttas often refer to the five strands of sensual pleasures rather than the five strands of sensory experience. I think you need to provide some sutta support for the claims above.
I don't feel the need to provide sutta support in this case - I think it is conventional to speak of "sensory experience" as pertaining to the 5 physical senses. I'm not trying to offer an alternative interpretation of what the Buddha taught or even to defend all of the ideas HHDL expresses above, I just find it strange to dismiss someone's ideas out of hand simply because their words do not conform to one's own narrow standards of acceptability based on one's own reading of translations of ancient texts (BTW, I almost certainly guilty of this myself). I think it is much more fruitful to give the benefit of the doubt, and seek to understand what another person is actually trying to communicate as opposed to seizing upon perceived minor semantic errors.

Please don't take offense - May you be well.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:30 pm

Garrib wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:14 pm
I don't feel the need to provide sutta support in this case ...
The suttas summarize what the Buddha taught.
'These are the six elements’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted … uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins. ‘These are the six bases for contact’ … ‘These are the eighteen mental examinations’ … ‘These are the four noble truths’: this, bhikkhus, is the Dhamma taught by me that is unrefuted, undefiled, irreproachable, and uncensured by wise ascetics and brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/bodhi
:candle:
Garrib wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:14 pm
seek to understand what another person is actually trying to communicate
OK... :mrgreen:
Garrib wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:14 pm
Please don't take offense - May you be well.
Be at ease friend. The last thing a Buddha-Dhamma practitioner does is take offense. Its not Cultural Marxism. :roll:

chownah
Posts: 7420
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: HH Dalai Lama

Post by chownah » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:18 am

If I remember correctly there is a sutta where it is explained that each of the six sense doors all except the mind are incapable of knowing of sensing what the others do.

I think this sutta might show the way that the buddha referred to the five....was the term "sense door" or something similar used?
chownah

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 50 guests