Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

You prefer traductions of Thanissaro Bhikkhu or Bhikkhu Bodhi ?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
17
39%
Bhikkhu Bodhi
27
61%
 
Total votes: 44

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DooDoot
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:50 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
It seems that the translation (in English) is having difficulty conveying accurately
My view plus what I have been taught is 'sankhara' has many different meanings. Dependent upon context, I was taught sankhara can mean "fabricating"; "fabrication"; "fabricated thing"; "fabricator".
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
What do you think , suggestion for sankhara (which I heard from a monk) in DO if translated as clinging formation ?
This cannot be true because a Buddha has a sankhara aggregate (refer to SN 22.85, for example).
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
I think it is better than translation as " choice " !
Bhikkhu Sujato's translated "choices" is too limited.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
Does the sankhara in the five aggregates can be translated as intention or determination ?!
Sankhara aggregate appears broader than this. For example, a defilement or mental image or dream or knowledge is probably sankhara aggregate.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
In SN 12.15 the word for existence in Pali is loka .
Actually the word is atthita.
Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.

Dvayanissito khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.15/en/sujato

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
atthitā
feminine
existence; being; reality.

Concise Pali English Dictionary
atthitā
feminine
existence; the fact of being present.

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DooDoot
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:04 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:31 am

“But what, Noble Lady, is bodily process, what is speech process, what is mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, is bodily process, thinking and reflection is speech process, perception and feeling is mental process.”

“But why is in-breathing and out-breathing, Noble Lady, bodily process, why is thinking and reflection speech process, why is perception and feeling mental process?”

“In-breathing and out-breathing, friend Visākha, are bodily, these things are bound up with the body, therefore in-breathing and out-breathing is a bodily process.

Having thought and reflected beforehand, friend Visākha, he afterwards breaks forth with a word, therefore thinking and reflection is a speech process.

Perception and feeling are mental factors, these things are bound up with the mind, therefore perception and feeling are mental processes.”

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/anandajoti
I am not inclined to the above translation because the "sankhara" described above are causes (rather than effects). For example, breathing causes life & health to the body; thoughts cause speech; perception & feeling cause defilements of the citta. The idea that perception and feeling are mental (citta) processes appears seriously flawed because perception and feeling are never correlated with the term "citta", which is used to refer to mental defilements or the absence of mental defilements. For example:
Luminous, monks, is the mind (citta). And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind (citta). And it is freed from incoming defilements."

Pabhassara Sutta
And how does a monk remain focused on the mind (citta) in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

MN 10
Perception and feeling are fabricators or causal agents of the citta rather than processes or products of the citta; as follows:
When one is touched by a pleasant feeling... the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling...the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling... the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

MN 148
Therefore, in MN 44, the word "sankhara" appears to mean something that "fabricates" or "conditions" the citta.
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:31 am
the translation 'preparation' has been used for sankhara.
I think "preparation" is better than "process" however my inclination is to translate as "preparator". Feeling & perception prepare the citta to generate defilements. This is the most basic Dhamma understanding a Buddhist must have. When there is pleasant feeling & pleasant perceptions in the mind; then the mind has the potential to generate lust or greed. It is the pleasant feeling that prepares the mind to descend into lust & greed. Buddhism 101.

James Tan
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:50 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
It seems that the translation (in English) is having difficulty conveying accurately
My view plus what I have been taught is 'sankhara' has many different meanings. Dependent upon context, I was taught sankhara can mean "fabricating"; "fabrication"; "fabricated thing"; "fabricator".
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
What do you think , suggestion for sankhara (which I heard from a monk) in DO if translated as clinging formation ?
This cannot be true because a Buddha has a sankhara aggregate (refer to SN 22.85, for example).
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
I think it is better than translation as " choice " !
Bhikkhu Sujato's translated "choices" is too limited.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
Does the sankhara in the five aggregates can be translated as intention or determination ?!
Sankhara aggregate appears broader than this. For example, a defilement or mental image or dream or knowledge is probably sankhara aggregate.
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:07 am
In SN 12.15 the word for existence in Pali is loka .
Actually the word is atthita.
Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.

Dvayanissito khvāyaṃ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.15/en/sujato

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
atthitā
feminine
existence; being; reality.

Concise Pali English Dictionary
atthitā
feminine
existence; the fact of being present.
Thanks for the explanation and correcting my mistake on existence.

Could you explain , what does sankhara in the DO mean precisely ?

Referring to the five aggregates ,
for the sankhara ~
Either is feeling perception ( intention) .

Or :

Feeling perception defilement
Feeling perception mental image
Feeling perception dream
Feeling perception knowledge

So, do you mean any of the above is also true ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:21 am

James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:51 pm
Could you explain , what does sankhara in the DO mean precisely ?
For me, sankhara in DO is merely those distracting thoughts (vaci sankhara) & memories (citta sankhara) that arise in meditation that you do not want to arise. Also, when the mind has concentration & is watching the breathing but the breathing is not yet calm; sankhara is the breathing (kaya sankhara) that is not yet calm; breathing that is still agitated because of past stress & present ignorance.

James Tan
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:12 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:21 am
James Tan wrote:
Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:51 pm
Could you explain , what does sankhara in the DO mean precisely ?
For me, sankhara in DO is merely those distracting thoughts (vaci sankhara) & memories (citta sankhara) that arise in meditation that you do not want to arise. Also, when the mind has concentration & is watching the breathing but the breathing is not yet calm; sankhara is the breathing (kaya sankhara) that is not yet calm; breathing that is still agitated because of past stress & present ignorance.
In the reverse order of dependent origination ,
by abandoning ignorant , sankhara ended follows by consciousness etc but memories / Citta sankhara still functioning ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:16 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:12 am
In the reverse order of dependent origination ,
by abandoning ignorant , sankhara ended follows by consciousness etc but memories / Citta sankhara still functioning ?
For me, the term "nirodha" does not mean "ended". For me, "nirodha" means the extinguishing of the defilements, including ignorance. Therefore, in the reverse order, consciousness remains but without ignorance polluting it. Similarly, as described in the definition of Nibbana, any sankhara are "samatho" ("calmed").

James Tan
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:16 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:12 am
In the reverse order of dependent origination ,
by abandoning ignorant , sankhara ended follows by consciousness etc but memories / Citta sankhara still functioning ?
For me, the term "nirodha" does not mean "ended". For me, "nirodha" means the extinguishing of the defilements, including ignorance. Therefore, in the reverse order, consciousness remains but without ignorance polluting it. Similarly, as described in the definition of Nibbana, any sankhara are "samatho" ("calmed").
After eliminating ignorant , sankhara being calmed ? Vaci thoughts , citta memories and breathing kaya , also calmed ? An arahant still have memory , right ?
:reading:

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DooDoot
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 pm

James Tan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 pm
After eliminating ignorant , sankhara being calmed ? Vaci thoughts , citta memories and breathing kaya , also calmed ? An arahant still have memory , right ?
I would guess so. The suttas seem to show the Buddha had memories.

James Tan
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 01, 2018 4:34 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:39 pm
James Tan wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 pm
After eliminating ignorant , sankhara being calmed ? Vaci thoughts , citta memories and breathing kaya , also calmed ? An arahant still have memory , right ?
I would guess so. The suttas seem to show the Buddha had memories.
After an arahant abandoned the ignorant does the sankhara also extinguished ?! Memory still there !
And follow by the cessation of consciousness ?!



https://suttacentral.net/ud1.3/en/anandajoti

“But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of volitional processes, from the cessation of volitional processes, the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness, the cessation of mind and body, from the cessation of mind and body, the cessation of the six sense spheres”.


:namaste:
:reading:

LuisR
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by LuisR » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:43 pm

I prefer Thanissaros translation. Main reason being I can't afford to purchase Bhikkhus Bhodis books.

dharmacorps
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:39 pm

I prefer TB's translations because I am more convinced he understands and practices the Buddhist teachings. His translations do require more work in thinking/processing to understand but in the end I find it results in a better individual grasp of the teachings which is the point of translations.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Ven Bodhi's versions are supreme. Ven Thanissaro's eternalism terms like "unbinding" or "becoming" is a failure.
I am not sure which in which context you are taking issue with "becoming" but "unbinding" always seemed like a synonym for unraveling or disentanglement, ultimately the end or a cessation of "a tangle", so i don't mind it. I also like a simile but idk how to say it in english, разматывание клубка пряжи.
Unraveling of this thing basically Image
sn1.23. Tangle

“A tangle inside, a tangle outside,
This generation is entangled in a tangle.
I ask you this, O Gotama,
Who can disentangle this tangle?”

“A man established on virtue, wise,
Developing the mind and wisdom,
A bhikkhu ardent and discreet:
He can disentangle this tangle.

“Those for whom lust and hatred
Along with ignorance have been expunged,
The arahants with taints destroyed:
For them the tangle is disentangled.

“Where name-and-form ceases,
Stops without remainder,
And also impingement and perception of form:
It is here this tangle is cut.”
He goes to Niraya, the one who asserts what didn't take place, as does the one who, having done, says, 'I didn't.' Both — low-acting people — there become equal: after death, in the world beyond.
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
How to Meditate: Mindfulness of Breathing
Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
How to Meditate: Basic Satipatthana
Parallel Dhammapada Reading

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Re: Which translation do you prefer: V Thanissaro or V Bodhi's ?

Post by Zom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:24 pm

I am not sure which in which context you are taking issue with "becoming" but "unbinding" always seemed like a synonym for unraveling or disentanglement, ultimately the end or a cessation of "a tangle", so i don't mind it.
The very translation is incorrect and misleading.

The word nirvāṇa, states Steven Collins, is from the verbal root vā "blow" in the form of past participle vāna "blown", prefixed with the preverb nis meaning "out". Hence the original meaning of the word is "blown out, extinguished". Sandhi changes the sounds: the v of vāna causes nis to become nir, and then the r of nir causes retroflexion of the following n: nis+vāna > nirvāṇa.[15]

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