Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Tue May 15, 2018 11:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:19 am
Dmytro wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 5:11 am
Why then does Lotus Sutra state the following:
adhimānīnna seveta vinaye cāgame sthitān|
arhantasaṁmatān bhikṣūn duḥśīlāṁścaiva varjayet||4||


One should avoid those arrogant, who follow the Vinaya and adhere to Agama,
Monks with dubious virtue who consider the Arahantship to be topmost.
Don't know. You'll have to ask the Buddha that one. :smile:
That would be best, of course, although it's probably not in the top ten questions we would choose to ask him if we saw him.
Meanwhile, I'm going to suggest that the Lotus is saying that one should avoid arrogant, literal-minded, rule-bound authoritarians whose behaviour does not reflect the core virtues.

:namaste:
Kim

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 1:45 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:34 am
That would be best, of course, although it's probably not in the top ten questions we would choose to ask him if we saw him.
Meanwhile, I'm going to suggest that the Lotus is saying that one should avoid arrogant, literal-minded, rule-bound authoritarians whose behaviour does not reflect the core virtues.

:namaste:
Kim
Indeed: The pernicious blighters exist in every Yana! Damn their (lack of) souls!
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

James Tan
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by James Tan » Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 pm
Oh? Are you referring to the ten Mahāsūtras and suchlike or do you mean that the canon contains complete Āgamas?
Kangyur.
There is no mention in your link of even one Āgama. The sūtra sub-link in it consists mostly of Mahāyāna sutras, with the Āgamic texts being limited to the handful of mahāsūtras.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html
Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along .
The Agama was kept in the library and the mahayanist don't bother to look at it .
:reading:

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Dhammanando
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 15, 2018 4:30 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm
Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along .
The Agama was kept in the library and the mahayanist don't bother to look at it .
I don't think that was universally the case. Many a Ch'an/Zen master, for example, was also a Tripitaka master, and one didn't become one of those without knowing the Āgama sūtras. Dōgen Zenji, for example, in his Shōbōgenzō seems to cite the Āgamas nearly as often as he does Mahāyāna texts.

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm

James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 3:45 pm
Kangyur.
There is no mention in your link of even one Āgama. The sūtra sub-link in it consists mostly of Mahāyāna sutras, with the Āgamic texts being limited to the handful of mahāsūtras.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html
Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along .
The Agama was kept in the library and the mahayanist don't bother to look at it .
Nonsense. I have read and translated all the Pali Canon teachings on kamma and sunnata into Greek plus an abridged version of the Milindpanha (which is being published this year) and I am a Vajrayani.

I am a huge fan of the (Pali :D ) Agamas.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

James Tan
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by James Tan » Wed May 16, 2018 2:35 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:30 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm
Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along .
The Agama was kept in the library and the mahayanist don't bother to look at it .
I don't think that was universally the case. Many a Ch'an/Zen master, for example, was also a Tripitaka master, and one didn't become one of those without knowing the Āgama sūtras. Dōgen Zenji, for example, in his Shōbōgenzō seems to cite the Āgamas nearly as often as he does Mahāyāna texts.
Tripitaka master only a handful . I would guess majority never read which I am certain .
Last edited by James Tan on Wed May 16, 2018 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
:reading:

James Tan
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by James Tan » Wed May 16, 2018 2:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 6:00 pm
James Tan wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:18 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:14 pm


There is no mention in your link of even one Āgama. The sūtra sub-link in it consists mostly of Mahāyāna sutras, with the Āgamic texts being limited to the handful of mahāsūtras.

http://read.84000.co/section/O1JC114941JC14668.html
Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along .
The Agama was kept in the library and the mahayanist don't bother to look at it .
Nonsense. I have read and translated all the Pali Canon teachings on kamma and sunnata into Greek plus an abridged version of the Milindpanha (which is being published this year) and I am a Vajrayani.

I am a huge fan of the (Pali :D ) Agamas.
Oh ya , how many vajrayani grigoris read Agama ,
I was a mahayanist and very much interested in vajrayana . Almost all the Rinpoches I contacted never read Agama . Majority of the mahayana monks regard Agama as worthless therefore never really read any.
:reading:

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Aloka
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Re: Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Post by Aloka » Wed May 16, 2018 7:40 am

JamesTan wrote:Almost all the Rinpoches I contacted never read Agama
There are a lot of Rinpoches in the different lineages of Vajrayana, James, I doubt you were able to contact them all!


:anjali:

dharmacorps
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Re: Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Post by dharmacorps » Wed May 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Master Hsuan Hua is one of my favorite Mahayana teachers, and he was a Tipitaka master who insisted on inclusion of theravada practitioners in his organizations. He also donated the land on what would become Abhayagiri.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsuan_Hua

James Tan
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Re: Musings on Tantra and Mayahana (from: Tantric Theravada?)

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 1:56 am

Aloka wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:40 am
JamesTan wrote:Almost all the Rinpoches I contacted never read Agama
There are a lot of Rinpoches in the different lineages of Vajrayana, James, I doubt you were able to contact them all!


:anjali:
Well , maybe you are right . But , the point here is not only they don't read Agama , they draw a distinction , Agama is belong to hinayana .
If at least anyone already went through the Agama texts and decided it is small vehicle that is fine . However , if anyone have not gone through the Agama texts and come to a conclusion that is mere ignorant .
I do see them as one family in Buddhism .
Any unwanted word directed to any party will create disharmony among each other .
:reading:

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:43 am
Oh ya , how many vajrayani grigoris read Agama...
It is not the point. You said: "Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along". That is not true. Even if ONE Mahayana person (me, for example) pays attention to the Agama, it means that your claim is false. Sweeping generalisations are generally really easy to refute,
because there are always exceptions to the generalisation. ;)
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

James Tan
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 9:31 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 8:53 am
James Tan wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:43 am
Oh ya , how many vajrayani grigoris read Agama...
It is not the point. You said: "Mahayana people never pay attention to the Agama all along". That is not true. Even if ONE Mahayana person (me, for example) pays attention to the Agama, it means that your claim is false. Sweeping generalisations are generally really easy to refute,
because there are always exceptions to the generalisation. ;)
OK, you are right . You are one .
:reading:

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mikenz66
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:31 am
OK, you are right . You are one .
I'm sure there are many, many others. I personally know Ven Huifeng (Matt Osborn), a fellow New Zealander, who used to post here as Paññāsikhara:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10625&start=60#p165587
And at DharmaWheel as Huifeng:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 87#p227787
He has studied Pali, Sanskrit, and Classical Chinese, and is quite knowledgeable about early texts.

:heart:
Mike

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Grigoris
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Grigoris » Thu May 17, 2018 10:08 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:31 am
OK, you are right . You are one .
I'm sure there are many, many others. I personally know Ven Huifeng (Matt Osborn), a fellow New Zealander, who used to post here as Paññāsikhara:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10625&start=60#p165587
And at DharmaWheel as Huifeng:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 87#p227787
He has studied Pali, Sanskrit, and Classical Chinese, and is quite knowledgeable about early texts.

:heart:
Mike
Haven't heard from Venerable for some time now (I too am an ex-kiwi), how is he?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

James Tan
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by James Tan » Thu May 17, 2018 3:57 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:31 am
OK, you are right . You are one .
I'm sure there are many, many others. I personally know Ven Huifeng (Matt Osborn), a fellow New Zealander, who used to post here as Paññāsikhara:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10625&start=60#p165587
And at DharmaWheel as Huifeng:
https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f ... 87#p227787
He has studied Pali, Sanskrit, and Classical Chinese, and is quite knowledgeable about early texts.

:heart:
Mike
Sure, but the place where I live , the Mahayana monks never read Agama . I think they might have most basic knowledge of four noble truth, eight right path etc but never delve further . Why ? Because many of them told me not to waste time on these dhamma and better go for higher level of Mahayana sutra .
:reading:

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