Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:17 am

DNS wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:10 pm
Actually, spiritual people and religious people tend to be happier. I won't link any studies, so no one thinks I'm cherry-picking, just google on your own and you'll see numerous studies confirm that the religious and greater religiosity tends to result in happier people.
I'm sure it does, under the condition that one is either born into a religion; or, if converting for the first time as an adult, that one has had little or no doubts about the religion and fits in among other members in the socio-economic sense.
And it extends across all socio-economic classes. It could be the sense of interconnectedness, the social effects, the sense of purpose, but it tends to result in greater happiness.
And there are many people for whom it doesn't work like that. From anecdotal observations and informal surveys, I have heard that people who convert for the first time as adults, tend to leave their new religion within the first five years (there aren't many studies about this particular population). It appears they were not all that happy, feeling purposeful and connected after all.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:05 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:23 pm
I think its the other way around. Unhappiness and suffering leads to a spiritual search.
:goodpost:
chownah

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zerotime
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by zerotime » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:18 pm

Image

http://www.businessinsider.com/countrie ... ers-2016-2




"The Blessed One said: "And how does one dwell in heedlessness? When a monk dwells without restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is stained, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in suffering. The mind of one who suffers does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena (dhammas) don't become manifest. When phenomena aren't manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedlessness."
...
"When a monk dwells with restraint over the ear... nose... tongue... body...

"When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the intellect, the mind is not stained with ideas cognizable via the intellect. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.

"This is how one dwells in heedfulness."



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

santa100
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by santa100 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:10 am

SarathW wrote:Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?
Guess it depends on what kind of happiness one's seeking..

binocular
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:06 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:57 am
Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?
A brief review of a book that challenges some popular notions of depression:
Manufacturing Depression by Gary Greenberg

An account of the way misery has been pathologised in the interests of drug companies is vital reading
Stephanie Merritt

Across the world, 450 million people suffer from mental health problems. In the next 20 years, according to the World Health Organisation, depression will become the single biggest health burden on society. Given these numbers, perhaps it is no surprise that experts have begun to challenge both the definition of the problem and the notion that medication is its best solution.

Oliver James, in 2007's Affluenza, argued that the depression "epidemic" was induced by a culture that obliges us to compete and consume. There was a media furore in 2008 when a major review appeared to show that Prozac worked little better than a placebo. Now US psychotherapist Gary Greenberg has stepped in with Manufacturing Depression, a thorough, often shocking history of how the pharmaceutical industry has pathologised misery in order to sell us the cure.

Greenberg includes frank and funny accounts of his own battle with depression, and deals principally with the US healthcare system. However, his argument and detailed evidence make it vital reading for anyone who has ever been squeezed through the machinery of depression treatments, or who simply has a healthy scepticism about the influence of Big Pharma.

"It could be that the depression epidemic is not so much the discovery of a long-unrecognised disease," he writes, "but a reconstitution of a broad swathe of human experience as illness." While he isn't the first to advance this argument, his account of the origins of psychiatric medicine is a revelation. The history of mental health research is one of guesswork, wild extrapolations and hit-and-miss efforts to impose a taxonomy on the aberrations of the mind. The conclusion that depression is the result of serotonin deficiency – the basis for a generation of treatments – was reached, Greenberg says, by scientists observing the effects of LSD.

Greenberg isn't afraid to stand against orthodoxy. If science claims depression is the result of neurochemical imbalance, and that this can be cured by restoring balance, then this is an optimistic view. In western society, to suggest that depression is part of our psychic landscape, and that in trying to eliminate it we risk losing something crucial to our humanity, is a heresy. But this engaging and necessary book is a rallying cry to resist the pathologising of emotion for profit. Greenberg is asking us to step back from neuroscience and take a more philosophical look at what it means to live now.

Pessimism, he suggests, may be a correct response to times of crisis, and a spur to action. "Regardless of whether or not the drugs work, to call pessimism the symptom of an illness and then turn our discontents over to the medical industry is to surrender perhaps the most important portion of our autonomy: the ability to look around and say… 'This is outrageous. Something must be done.'"

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/ ... erg-review
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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DNS
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by DNS » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:06 am
Manufacturing Depression by Gary Greenberg

Now US psychotherapist Gary Greenberg has stepped in with Manufacturing Depression, a thorough, often shocking history of how the pharmaceutical industry has pathologised misery in order to sell us the cure.

Greenberg includes frank and funny accounts of his own battle with depression, and deals principally with the US healthcare system. However, his argument and detailed evidence make it vital reading for anyone who has ever been squeezed through the machinery of depression treatments, or who simply has a healthy scepticism about the influence of Big Pharma.
That's what I was thinking of when I saw the graph; notice how the countries with the largest use of anti-depressants are also the nations where Big Pharma is in place. It could be that depression rates are as high or higher in other nations, but they don't have Big Pharma in those other nations. Or they have other ways (perhaps better) of dealing with depression, social ties, religion, spirituality, etc.

James Tan
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:45 am

Happiness is better described as "well-being" or "human flourishing" or "good life" .
Therefore , health , money , wiseness , good companion and successful in career all these constitute happiness .
Thus , without religion and spiritual values ,
People still can have happiness .
Most of the time , somebody's sufferings and miseries is someone else happiness ! Ultimately , hapinesses is built on sufferings . One way or another .
:reading:

binocular
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 am
That's what I was thinking of when I saw the graph; notice how the countries with the largest use of anti-depressants are also the nations where Big Pharma is in place. It could be that depression rates are as high or higher in other nations, but they don't have Big Pharma in those other nations. Or they have other ways (perhaps better) of dealing with depression, social ties, religion, spirituality, etc.
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
It is curious, is it not, that whereas, since Freud, the most extravagant fancies in the realm of love are considered to be perfectly normal (a person without them is regarded as a case for treatment), in the realm of death (the other great pole of human life) any strange fancies are still classed as 'morbid'. The Suttas reverse the situation: sensual thoughts are the thoughts of a sick man (sick with ignorance and craving), and the way to health is through thoughts of foulness and the diseases of the body, and of its death and decomposition. And not in an abstract scientific fashion either—one sees or imagines a rotting corpse, for example, and then pictures one's very own body in such a state.

Our contemporaries are more squeamish. A few years ago a practising Harley Street psychiatrist, who was dabbling in Buddhism, came to see me. I opened the conversation by saying 'At some time in his life, every intelligent man questions himself about the purpose of his existence.' Immediately, and with the most manifest disapproval, the psychiatrist replied 'Anybody who thinks such thoughts is mentally diseased.' Thus with a single gesture, he swept half-a-dozen major philosophers (some of whom have held chairs in universities—which guarantees their respectability if not their philosophy) into the lunatic asylum—the criminal lunatic asylum, to judge from his tone. I have never seen a man in such a funk.

http://nanavira.org/letters/post-sotapa ... nuary-1963
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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zerotime
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by zerotime » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 pm

agree with your remarks about the market with the sadness.

I think it is interesting the SN 35.97, in where the missing of joy appears to be related with a lack of restraint regarding the senses and intellect.
In our times the overstimulation of the senses and using information is the rule, although normally it is observed like a secondary problem.

chownah
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
chownah

LotusTara3
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by LotusTara3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:20 am

I found this YouTube video where the lecturer explains spiritual people are happier as individuals in their own practice regardless of income; but, religious people are from poorer uneducated countries where spirituality is about community and not individual practice. The difference seems to be religious organizations help poor communities cope with poverty but are not measures of personal wellbeing of happiness.

LotusTara3
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by LotusTara3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:27 am

zerotime wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:18 pm
Image

http://www.businessinsider.com/countrie ... ers-2016-2




"The Blessed One said: "And how does one dwell in heedlessness? When a monk dwells without restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is stained, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in suffering. The mind of one who suffers does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena (dhammas) don't become manifest. When phenomena aren't manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedlessness."
...
"When a monk dwells with restraint over the ear... nose... tongue... body...

"When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the intellect, the mind is not stained with ideas cognizable via the intellect. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.

"This is how one dwells in heedfulness."



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It is also important to note in cultural psychology it is known many Asian cultures have a stigma about mental illness and depression. This means less reports of depression and embarrassment to seek help or negative attitudes towards anti-depressants which could benefit those who maybe mask symptoms with denial.

binocular
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:35 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
Take the newest version of the DSM. Imagine a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM.
What are you left with?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:04 pm

I think people confuse "depression" with depression actual depression is a disease caused by malfunctioning neurotransmitters. It's like confusing an alcoholic with a guy who drinks. We all can feel depressed at any particular moment in life, but to have depression is actually have the body induce the feeling when the conditions for that feeling don't always exist. As someone who actually has depression I can say for sure there is no particular reason for it at times. The medicine can make a difference between feeling 'a subtle sense of deep unease' and feeling a rootless despair. It's not normal, it's definitely abnormal. As for why 'developed' nations have it more diagnosed and treated, it has less to do with its lack of existence and more to do with a bunch of factors the financial ability to treat it, access to treatment, and how socially acceptable it is to treat it. A neglected problem does not mean the problem doesn't exist. In Korea for example, the level of suicides sort of cuts that argument to irrelevance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

untreated depression has suicide as the great equalizer.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

chownah
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:35 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
Take the newest version of the DSM. Imagine a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM.
What are you left with?
If you find such a person then you are left with a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM of course.....nothing like you described above.
Not having any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM does not make someone less human....although many people who do have one or more of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM might like to paint someone who does not have them as being subhuman out of jealousy.
chownah

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