Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by DNS » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:06 am
Manufacturing Depression by Gary Greenberg

Now US psychotherapist Gary Greenberg has stepped in with Manufacturing Depression, a thorough, often shocking history of how the pharmaceutical industry has pathologised misery in order to sell us the cure.

Greenberg includes frank and funny accounts of his own battle with depression, and deals principally with the US healthcare system. However, his argument and detailed evidence make it vital reading for anyone who has ever been squeezed through the machinery of depression treatments, or who simply has a healthy scepticism about the influence of Big Pharma.
That's what I was thinking of when I saw the graph; notice how the countries with the largest use of anti-depressants are also the nations where Big Pharma is in place. It could be that depression rates are as high or higher in other nations, but they don't have Big Pharma in those other nations. Or they have other ways (perhaps better) of dealing with depression, social ties, religion, spirituality, etc.

James Tan
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:45 am

Happiness is better described as "well-being" or "human flourishing" or "good life" .
Therefore , health , money , wiseness , good companion and successful in career all these constitute happiness .
Thus , without religion and spiritual values ,
People still can have happiness .
Most of the time , somebody's sufferings and miseries is someone else happiness ! Ultimately , hapinesses is built on sufferings . One way or another .
:reading:

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm

DNS wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 am
That's what I was thinking of when I saw the graph; notice how the countries with the largest use of anti-depressants are also the nations where Big Pharma is in place. It could be that depression rates are as high or higher in other nations, but they don't have Big Pharma in those other nations. Or they have other ways (perhaps better) of dealing with depression, social ties, religion, spirituality, etc.
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
It is curious, is it not, that whereas, since Freud, the most extravagant fancies in the realm of love are considered to be perfectly normal (a person without them is regarded as a case for treatment), in the realm of death (the other great pole of human life) any strange fancies are still classed as 'morbid'. The Suttas reverse the situation: sensual thoughts are the thoughts of a sick man (sick with ignorance and craving), and the way to health is through thoughts of foulness and the diseases of the body, and of its death and decomposition. And not in an abstract scientific fashion either—one sees or imagines a rotting corpse, for example, and then pictures one's very own body in such a state.

Our contemporaries are more squeamish. A few years ago a practising Harley Street psychiatrist, who was dabbling in Buddhism, came to see me. I opened the conversation by saying 'At some time in his life, every intelligent man questions himself about the purpose of his existence.' Immediately, and with the most manifest disapproval, the psychiatrist replied 'Anybody who thinks such thoughts is mentally diseased.' Thus with a single gesture, he swept half-a-dozen major philosophers (some of whom have held chairs in universities—which guarantees their respectability if not their philosophy) into the lunatic asylum—the criminal lunatic asylum, to judge from his tone. I have never seen a man in such a funk.

http://nanavira.org/letters/post-sotapa ... nuary-1963

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by zerotime » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:35 pm

agree with your remarks about the market with the sadness.

I think it is interesting the SN 35.97, in where the missing of joy appears to be related with a lack of restraint regarding the senses and intellect.
In our times the overstimulation of the senses and using information is the rule, although normally it is observed like a secondary problem.

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
chownah

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by LotusTara3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:20 am

I found this YouTube video where the lecturer explains spiritual people are happier as individuals in their own practice regardless of income; but, religious people are from poorer uneducated countries where spirituality is about community and not individual practice. The difference seems to be religious organizations help poor communities cope with poverty but are not measures of personal wellbeing of happiness.

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by LotusTara3 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:27 am

zerotime wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:18 pm
Image

http://www.businessinsider.com/countrie ... ers-2016-2




"The Blessed One said: "And how does one dwell in heedlessness? When a monk dwells without restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is stained, there is no joy. There being no joy, there is no rapture. There being no rapture, there is no serenity. There being no serenity, he dwells in suffering. The mind of one who suffers does not become centered. When the mind is uncentered, phenomena (dhammas) don't become manifest. When phenomena aren't manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedlessness."
...
"When a monk dwells with restraint over the ear... nose... tongue... body...

"When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the intellect, the mind is not stained with ideas cognizable via the intellect. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.

"This is how one dwells in heedfulness."



https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It is also important to note in cultural psychology it is known many Asian cultures have a stigma about mental illness and depression. This means less reports of depression and embarrassment to seek help or negative attitudes towards anti-depressants which could benefit those who maybe mask symptoms with denial.

binocular
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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:35 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
Take the newest version of the DSM. Imagine a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM.
What are you left with?

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:04 pm

I think people confuse "depression" with depression actual depression is a disease caused by malfunctioning neurotransmitters. It's like confusing an alcoholic with a guy who drinks. We all can feel depressed at any particular moment in life, but to have depression is actually have the body induce the feeling when the conditions for that feeling don't always exist. As someone who actually has depression I can say for sure there is no particular reason for it at times. The medicine can make a difference between feeling 'a subtle sense of deep unease' and feeling a rootless despair. It's not normal, it's definitely abnormal. As for why 'developed' nations have it more diagnosed and treated, it has less to do with its lack of existence and more to do with a bunch of factors the financial ability to treat it, access to treatment, and how socially acceptable it is to treat it. A neglected problem does not mean the problem doesn't exist. In Korea for example, the level of suicides sort of cuts that argument to irrelevance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate

untreated depression has suicide as the great equalizer.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:35 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:11 am
binocular wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:44 pm
Well, if you look at what a "normal person" would be by the standards of Western psychiatry -- such a person would be a robotoid, a docile android sheep with the emotional depth of a frozen squid.
Wrong.
Where does this come from????
Ignorance.
Take the newest version of the DSM. Imagine a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM.
What are you left with?
If you find such a person then you are left with a person who doesn't have any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM of course.....nothing like you described above.
Not having any of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM does not make someone less human....although many people who do have one or more of the diseases, disorders, conditions, or problems listed in the DSM might like to paint someone who does not have them as being subhuman out of jealousy.
chownah

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by Digity » Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:55 pm

I think people who seek out a path like Buddhism see that something is off about life. They see the problems and are aware of all the anxieties that come with existing. I think they're more acutely aware and sensitive to the pains in life. This can lead to a depressed an anxious disposition, but the flip side is that these same people tend to see things more clearly in some respects. They see that "something" is wrong. Ideally, that negativity doesn't swallow them whole and they use that angst to seek out the path and practice it (samvega).

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by Circle5 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:23 pm

Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?
If by spiritual we mean it in the good sense, that of trying to answer how the world actually works, then the person should end up wiser. Giving that he can traverse the jungle of views and find what is correct and discard what is wrong, then his wisdom should increase. He should end up understanding how the world works, how the mind works, etc.

Would a wise person be depressed, unhappy and poor ? I don't think so. I think a person with wisdom should be happy, successful and rich, otherwise does he really have wisdom ? If he doesn't know how to get happy, successful and rich, then maybe his wisdom is not that strong as he might think. A person with wisdom that is a lay person and not a monk should be successful in his lay life too, thanks to his wisdom. And I think there is a sutta where Buddha is saying the same thing.

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by auto » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:12 pm

You need do spiritualty on body, draw some line towards body center what is responsible for certain function and emotion.

Like elbow, it allows you to cover your face when something horrible happens. When you stop using bodyly movements then you need overcome it mentally.
And if you can do it mentally then you can use it instead of hand gestures or body positions.

Being able to know things how they feel it can be painful to live through those emotions without grounding them to some punching bag.

There is a sensation of feeling inferior to others and feeling of public shame and judgement, the thoughts of killing myself appear so if you don't see them then they can unconsciously force you to start commiting to these thoughts..

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Re: Are spiritual people depressed and unhappy and poor?

Post by chownah » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:00 am

Steven Jobs was a spiritual person and he was rich.
chownah

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