Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:33 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:48 pm
narhwal90 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:30 pm
Case in point of disparate views; a good friend of mine is Catholic, one of her aunts, Catholic as well, was big into an obscure tradition that daily prayed for armageddon so as to speed the arrival of the rapture. I'm inclined to think any similarly big enough, old enough religion will have all sorts of odd nooks and corners such that most any argument can be supported via appropriate cherry-picking.
Not so much "cherry picking", but the point you raise demonstrates that there's a diverse spectrum of understandings in play within any given major world religion. Think about the diverse understandings members have here within the spectrum of Theravada Buddhism itself, let alone Buddhism as a whole!

Criticism of the extremes should not be regarded as criticism of the whole, and conversely, where the whole is criticized, it's important to make an effort to understand whether that which is under criticism genuinely applies to the whole.
It's a matter of effective discussion strategy: Pick the one variant of an argument that is the most extreme, or in which the weaker ones converge, refute that one, and you will have refuted all weaker ones along with it, or at least clarified the most pertinent point of the matter.

Hence my focus on eternal damnation. I'm not interested in detailed criticism, or the pros and cons of a particular religion. I only want to see whether it should be accepted, or dismissed. Otherwise, one just gets bogged down in details and in the efforts to find something positive everywhere.

In its proper application, the analytical mind exhausts itself.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:14 am
I'm sorry, but I have to point out that this is dangerously wrong. Nazis were swimming in lies. Lies about jews. Lies about "race". Lies about their "race". Lies about the history of their "race". Lies about history in general. Nazis were not merely interpreting the facts in a different way. They were deluded about what the facts were.
Modus

Have you ever considered your attitude towards Islam might possibly share some similar traits to the Nazi attitude towards Jews? Are you aware Judaism & Islam are very similar religions, both including violence or militarism to establish their visions of a worldly utopia? Surely, the Nazis & many German people had some grievances against Jews, such as the atheist yet seemingly Judaic philosophy of Communism; which I think might be a similar situation to your concerns about Islam.
June 5, 1941 ZURICH

While having many Jewish friends before the World War, ex-Kaiser Wilhelm II turned completely anti-Jewish after the war when he lost his throne and was compelled to live in exile in Doom, Holland, it was recalled here today in connection with the death of the ex-ruler of Germany at the age of 82. The ex-Kaiser blamed the Jews for his defeat. “I shall not leave the throne to please a couple of hundred Jews and several thousand workers,” he was reported to have said to Dr. Drews, German Minister of Interior who conveyed to him on Nov. 3, 1918, the request of the German Government that he abdicate.

https://www.jta.org/1941/06/05/archive/ ... nys-defeat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_I ... tisemitism
The Bavarian Soviet Republic (German: Bayerische Räterepublik) was the short-lived unrecognised socialist state in Bavaria during the German Revolution of 1918–19. It took the form of a workers' council republic. Its name is variously rendered in English as the Bavarian Council Republic or the Munich Soviet Republic (the German name Räterepublik means a republic of councils or committees; council or committee is also the meaning of the Russian word soviet) after its capital of Munich. It was established in April 1919 following the demise of Kurt Eisner's People's State of Bavaria and sought independence from the also newly-proclaimed Weimar Republic. However, it was overthrown less than a month later by elements of the German Army and the paramilitary Freikorps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic

Eugen Leviné (Russian: Евгений Левине) (born 10 May 1883 – 5 July 1919) was a German communist revolutionary and leader of the short-lived Bavarian Council Republic. Leviné was born in St. Petersburg into the Jewish merchant family Julius and Rozalia (née Goldberg).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Levin%C3%A9

Kurt Eisner [kʊʁt ˈaɪ̯snɐ] (14 May 1867 – 21 February 1919) was a journalist and theatre critic. As a socialist journalist, he organised the Socialist Revolution that overthrew the Wittelsbach monarchy in Bavaria in November 1918. He is used as an example of charismatic authority by Max Weber. He proclaimed the Free State of Bavaria. Kurt Eisner was born in Berlin at 10:15 p.m. on 14 May 1867, to Emanuel Eisner and Hedwig Levenstein, both Jewish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Eisner
Hello.

Of course I have considered it, despite the situations not being comparable. The subtext to all of these conversations is that very fear you expressed, and a legitimate one at that. In face of the problem we're having with islamic fascism there are 3 options: (1) Ignore/deny the problem; (2) Try to talk about the problem and solve it as peacefully and democratically as possible; (3) Solve it through force. I follow option (2) and oppose options (1) and (3). It is obvious why option (3) should be avoided. The big problem is that people who choose (1) are not aware that they are sweeping the problem under the rug. This is especially serious when politicians do it. The result is that the far right is growing everywhere in the West. If the center parties do their job within the framework of democracy, we will not end up at point (3). But if people who choose (1) insist on not providing constructive solutions, and on insulting those who choose (2), they are preventing (2) and, thus, causing (3). What I have always tried to prevent was option (3).

The second point that is very important to mention is that the levels of antisemitism in the islamic world are shocking (but, for unfanthomable reasons, "progressives" think that islamic bigotry is ok). Whether on TV, on the dictators' mouths, or on the preachers' mouths, it is shocking and unacceptable. Jews are fleeing Europe, especially France, due to the hate crimes commited against them, which still surpass those commited against muslims, despite being fewer jews than muslims in the West. It should be needless to say, but I do not support attributing collective blame to muslims for what the fascist portion of muslims do.

Thirdly, on the compulsory nature of religion, non muslims living in a muslim land have to pay a special tax and be humilliated. It is either convert, die, or live in humilliation. Only by converting can you escape the servile condition.

Fourthly, we are lucky that most people, of any religion, do not follow their religion with dogmatic zeal. This means that religious doctrines influence the behaviour of people, but do not determine the behaviour of the adherents. This simple truth is why criticizing islam is not criticizing all muslims. And it is also why criticism of the bad elements in islamic doctrines contributes to less violence and, thus, is not itself a bad thing.

Fortunately, there is hope for secularism also based in islamic theology, as well as for reformation. One important factor is that islam does not have a central authority, a pope. It is also islamic doctrine that whatever interpretation of islam that is consistent with the canonical texts is legitimately islamic. Since there are competing interpretations within the bounds of consistency, the competing interpretations have two options: form factions and wage war on each other, or adopt separation between religion and state. That's what we did after the wars in Europe based on religion. It would be great if the muslim world could skip all the years that took us to figure out separation of religion and state. Furthermore, the koran, which is believed by many to be the infallible word of god has several scientific mistakes in it, such as the sperm being supposed to be formed around the chest cavity (sorry, this is the only example that springs to my mind at the moment). This means that koranic literalism will have to be rejected at some point, which will trickle down to the interpretation of the hadiths. So, after these two things, a large scale project of reformation can begin and, hopefully, succeed.

With this, I bow out of these islam discussions. My time is more precious than this and I left the forum primarily because I was discussing this too much. Any doubts, consult the canonical sources, and support people like Maajid Nawaz, Raheel Raza, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, Ali Rizvi, and so forth.

Over and out.

Añjali

PS: Please make an effort to understand that point (2) is not evil, even if you disagree with it. Also, I will not reply further, even to lies.
Last edited by Modus.Ponens on Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

lostitude
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:28 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:38 am
Historical reality proves the above is absolutely wrong because under the Islamic Empire people were free to practise their religions.
... and pay a tax for doing so. That's not exactly "freedom to practice one's religion."
1/The tax they paid came in replacement of the zakat, which is what the Muslims had to pay.
2/They were exempted from military service and their freedom to practice their religion protected, as long as they paid this tax. Don't you pay tax in exchange for law and order, in your country?

There may be no compulsion in Islam (or religion in general), but there is the equivalent of "peer pressure".
So? How is this specific to islam, and how does it warrant islam-bashing by Buddhists?

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 pm

Greetings Modus.Ponens,

Excellent post, well said.

TL;DR - Necessary reformation of Islam, in keeping with the principles of modern civilization, will dampen the threat of both Islamic extremism and the far-right.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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ryanM
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by ryanM » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:10 pm

Pastafarians are a godless people with nothing but noodles for brains.
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"

lostitude
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:42 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm

In face of the problem we're having with islamic fascism there are 3 options: (1) Ignore/deny the problem; (2) Try to talk about the problem and solve it as peacefully and democratically as possible; (3) Solve it through force. I follow option (2)
Sorry to be blunt, but this is just a rosy misrepresentation of what you've been doing in this thread. I may have missed some of your postings, but you certainly didn't specify that you were talking about islamic fascism in what I have read from you here. You basically implied 'this is Islam' while throwing around all sorts of accusations.

Secondly, you don't solve the issue of islamic fascism through fearmongering and depicting 2 billion people as being basically inhumane unless of course they are bad Muslims, i.e. good people. If the cause of islamic fascism had anything to do with religion, it would be centered on the core values of Islam, whereas what we can see today is that it is centered on the sole political/military aspect of the historical development of the Muslim world, leaving aside all of the 5 pillars of Islam per se.
The second point that is very important to mention is that the levels of antisemitism in the islamic world are shocking
After Trump's decision a few hours ago, your remark is, I'm sorry, almost laughable. Why do you think that is???
Thirdly, on the compulsory nature of religion, non muslims living in a muslim land have to pay a special tax and be humilliated. It is either convert, die, or live in humilliation. Only by converting can you escape the servile condition.
One more misrepresentation. A few texts from the 7th century do mention that non-Muslims should be humiliated, but no Muslim today gives credence to such texts, just as no Christian gives credence to what Torquemada wrote. So why does Torquemada not concern you, but this does?
Fourthly, we are lucky that most people, of any religion, do not follow their religion with dogmatic zeal.
You are implying that there is only one way of being a faithful Muslim, and it is the ugly way that you're striving to present as the only true one. That's preposterous...
This simple truth is why criticizing islam is not criticizing all muslims.
But you criticize 'islam' by criticizing a few carefully selected texts that you either misrepresent in their importance, or misunderstand as to how Muslims interpret them and apply them.
And it is also why criticism of the bad elements in islamic doctrines contributes to less violence and, thus, is not itself a bad thing.
Nonsense, to remain polite.

Despite your best efforts to sound wise and reasonable, all you are trying to sell here is just the usual far-right rationale about how all Muslims are terrorists/fascists in disguise, getting prepared for the Great Replacement, because that's what their religion forces them to do, and even if they may not realize it, you do, because you understand islam better than Muslims do, and you know how to interpret their texts and make sens of them better than they do. What you're 'contributing' as you say, is only more hatred and, potentially, more violence. What did you expect to accomplish, telling 2 billion mostly innocent and kind-hearted people that their religion is wicked and breeds terrorists? I really think you should stick to Buddhism.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:18 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 pm
Greetings Modus.Ponens,

Excellent post, well said.
I have not even read the post but doubt it was well-said. I will refute after I read it. ;)
lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 pm
1/The tax they paid came in replacement of the zakat, which is what the Muslims had to pay.
2/They were exempted from military service and their freedom to practice their religion protected, as long as they paid this tax. Don't you pay tax in exchange for law and order, in your country?
Excellent post, well said. :)
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Of course I have considered it, despite the situations not being comparable.
I doubt you considered anything essential at all because, for me, anyone that uses the Nazi-Jew accusation does not consider much at all. The Holocaust thing did not really start until Germany starting losing a war they believed would be a quick victory over the brutal Communist Soviet Union. Germany made many attempts to have all Jews leave Germany but were blocked by both Western powers & Zionists. Germany did not kill any Jews until the war turned. Prior to the war turning, the Nazis supported all Jewish relocation efforts, such as The Transfer (Haavara) Agreement. Just like you want Muslims out of the West, the Germans wanted the Jews out of Germany (not due to race but due to ideology or behaviour).
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
The subtext to all of these conversations is that very fear you expressed, and a legitimate one at that. In face of the problem we're having with islamic fascism...
This is so wrong. Islam is not threatening the West. It is the West threatening Islam. It was the West who imported cheap Muslim labour during the 1960s and 70s. It is the West via its immoral unwarranted war-making (in Iraq, Libya & Syria) that created the European refugee crisis. If you are unable to discern it is the West who are imperialist fascists, you cannot discern the cause of the problem. You end up like Adolf Hilter, with his blame of Jews & praise of the British Empire, not recognizing Financial Jews were an essential part of the British Empire. You, similar to Hitler, appear to be blaming Muslims for a problem created by Western Imperialists.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
The result is that the far right is growing everywhere in the West. If the center parties do their job within the framework of democracy, we will not end up at point.
I think you need to disprove Hitler's ideas about the inefficacy of democracy. Also, I think you probably need to think outside the box as to why Western politicians are allowing violent men from Africa & Asia (referred to as "Muslims") to freely enter Europe. I can't give you the answers on this forum because it would be politically incorrect. To me, your diagnosis is very superficial. In being unable to fault the Western govts you seem to support via your silence, you appear to not be able to discern the prominent evil in the world. Thus, to me, your ideas fall outside of the scope of Buddhism, namely, fall outside of an examination of cause & effect. Instead, your thinking to me appears to be Christian or Islamic, i.e., God versus Satan. Islam is like an autonomous causeless Satan.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
The second point that is very important to mention is that the levels of antisemitism in the islamic world are shocking.
This is false. Many Muslims are semitic. Historically, Muslims always provided refuge for Jews. It was the violent takeover of Palestine by European Jews, many who were dubiously semitic, that changed things. Regardless, in Buddhism, being anti-Jewish is not a crime because Buddhism & Judaism, based on scripture, share little in common. You seem unable to acknowledge that Judaism & Islam are very similar, the main difference being the former is a tribal religion & the later a universal religion.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Whether on TV, on the dictators' mouths, or on the preachers' mouths, it is shocking and unacceptable. Jews are fleeing Europe, especially France, due to the hate crimes commited against them, which still surpass those commited against muslims, despite being fewer jews than muslims in the West. It should be needless to say, but I do not support attributing collective blame to muslims for what the fascist portion of muslims do.
There is the strong impression arising in my mind that, for you, "Jews" seem to form the centre of your universe. Jews are the same as all people, namely, they are heirs to their kamma. Jews also do bad things, which causes people to dislike them. I think to have an unprejudiced & objective discussion, you need to abandon the Nazi-Holocaust narrative, which, importantly, is unrelated to Islam.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Thirdly, on the compulsory nature of religion, non muslims living in a muslim land have to pay a special tax and be humilliated. It is either convert, die, or live in humilliation. Only by converting can you escape the servile condition.
This is false. Regardless, it is better than being totally slaughtered, as prescribed in the Jewish Bible.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Fourthly, we are lucky that most people, of any religion, do not follow their religion with dogmatic zeal.
I suggested you consider how close to Hitler your views here may possibly be & consider whether it is you that is posting with dogmatic zeal. :shrug:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
This means that religious doctrines influence the behaviour of people, but do not determine the behaviour of the adherents. This simple truth is why criticizing islam is not criticizing all muslims. And it is also why criticism of the bad elements in islamic doctrines contributes to less violence and, thus, is not itself a bad thing.
The world has had many extremely civil Islamic nations, which for centuries were not only home to Jews but allowed Jews to become enormously wealthy. I think your posts are an example of dogmatic zeal because they appear to ignore the actual reality of Islamic history & its relationship with other religions. Your posts here appear to be a neo-con media version of Islam rather than anything real.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Fortunately, there is hope for secularism also based in islamic theology, as well as for reformation.
I recall advising before that after WW2 (post-colonialism) most Islamic nations established democratic governments, which was thwarted by the West, who, in turn, installed dictators, in order to preserve their economic interests.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
With this, I bow out of these islam discussions. My time is more precious than this and I left the forum primarily because I was discussing this too much. Any doubts, consult the canonical sources, and support people like Maajid Nawaz, Raheel Raza, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, Ali Rizvi, and so forth.
I also think it is wise for you to bow out because you appear to be posting from a Zionist agenda rather than from Buddhist impartiality. Buddhism teaches gratitude. Muslims for centuries helped Jews. The historical problem for Jews was Christianity & Europeans rather than Islam.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
PS: Please make an effort to understand that point (2) is not evil, even if you disagree with it. Also, I will not reply further, even to lies.
Your point #2 appeared to be about Jews, again. I think taking a chauvinistic Zionist position here does not help. Zionism was a colonialist & violent movement originally created by British Protestants & Atheist Jews (but opposed by religious Jews), similar to how Communism was largely an ideology created by Atheist Jews (but opposed by religious Jews). From a Buddhist viewpoint, if some Muslims dislike Jews for what occurred in Palestine & for the constant Zionist call for war against Muslim nations (such as Iraq & Iran), this naturally follows the law of kamma. Again, you appear to be asserting a doctrine of causelessness, which is not Buddhist. In Buddhism, Jews are not held to be a Chosen People, who have no recourse to the law of kamma. From a Buddhist perspective, if a Jewish person commits unskilful kamma, there will be results of that kamma.

In summary:

1. Islamic Law may have contrary aspects to Western Law therefore it is OK if Western govts choose to not accept Islamic immigration.

2. Islam historically helped Jews therefore Buddhism suggest Jews should be grateful towards Islam.

3. Recent Islamic animosity towards the West & Jews has been caused (samudhaya) by Western & Zionist Imperialism (Fascism).

4. Western dictator support & wars against Muslims has resulted in millions of Muslim deaths since WW2.

5. Islam did not do 9/11. According to the official story, Wahhabi Saudis (who were formerly CIA assets) did 9/11.

:anjali:

6. Notice in this video how, on the day of 9/11, the Israeli blamed Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Libya & North Korea for 9/11 rather than Saudi Arabia. The same narrative or lie has been played out since 9/11; with Al Qaeda working to destroy the nations mentioned by the Israeli.

Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Mkoll
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mkoll » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:45 pm

ryanM wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:10 pm
Pastafarians are a godless people with nothing but noodles for brains.
:rofl:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

DooDoot
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:17 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:50 pm
Jews are fleeing Europe, especially France, due to the hate crimes commited against them, which still surpass those commited against muslims, despite being fewer jews than muslims in the West. It should be needless to say, but I do not support attributing collective blame to muslims for what the fascist portion of muslims do.
Some prominent Jews appear to promote Islamization. Some samples:
'Islamization of Europe a good thing'

Rabbi Baruch Efrati believes Jews should 'rejoice at the fact that Europe is paying for what it did to us for hundreds of years by losing its identity.' He praises Islam for promoting modesty, respect for God

As concerns grow over the increasing number of Muslims in Europe, it appears not everyone is bothered by the issue, including an Israeli rabbi who even welcomes the phenomenon.

Rabbi Baruch Efrati, a yeshiva head and community rabbi in the West Bank settlement of Efrat, believes that the Islamization of Europe is actually a good thing.

"With the help of God, the gentiles there will adopt a healthier life with a lot of modesty and integrity, and not like the hypocritical Christianity which appears pure but is fundamentally corrupt," he explained.

Rabbi Efrati was asked to discuss the issue by an oriental studies student, who inquired on Judaism's stand toward the process Europe has been going through in recent years.

Following the election of a hijab-wearing Muslim woman as the mayor of the Bosnian city of Visoko for the first time in continent's history, the student asked the rabbi on the Kipa website: "How do we fight the Islamization of Europe and return it to the hands of Christians and moderates?"

Efrati wrote in response that the Islamization of Europe was better than a Christian Europe for ethical and theological reasons – as a punishment against Christians for persecuting the Jews and the fact that Christianity, as opposed to Islam, is considered "idolatry" from a halachic point of view.

"Jews should rejoice at the fact that Christian Europe is losing its identity as a punishment for what it did to us for the hundreds of years were in exile there," the rabbi explained as the ethical reason for favoring Muslims, quoting shocking descriptions from the Rishonim literature (written by leading rabbis who lived during the 11th to 15th centuries) about pogroms and mass murders committed by Christians against Jews.

"We will never forgive Europe's Christians for slaughtering millions of our children, women and elderly… Not just in the recent Holocaust, but throughout the generations, in a consistent manner which characterizes all factions of hypocritical Christianity

"A now, Europe is losing its identity in favor of another people and another religion, and there will be no remnants and survivors from the impurity of Christianity, which shed a lot of blood it won't be able to atone for."

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 73,00.html
Jewish groups join call to accept Syrian refugees into US

Among the Jewish groups signing are the Union for Reform Judaism, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, the National Council for Jewish Women, the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-gro ... s-into-us/
Netanyahu: ISIS out, Iran in? We won't allow it

Netanyahu stresses Israel will not allow Iran and its proxies to take over areas vacated by ISIS.

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/233870
Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon said Tuesday that Iran poses a greater threat than the Islamic State, and that if the Syrian regime were to fall, Israel would prefer that IS was in control of the territory than an Iranian proxy.

In Syria, if the choice is between Iran and the Islamic State, I choose the Islamic State. They don’t have the capabilities that Iran has,” Ya’alon told a conference held by the Institute of National Security Studies in Tel Aviv.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-i- ... -in-syria/
Israeli intelligence Chief, Major General Herzi Halevy, said that the last three months have been the most difficult for ISIS since its inception.

In a speech delivered at “Herzliya” conference yesterday , Halevy explicitly said “Israel” does not want the situation in Syria to end with the defeat of ISIS “, the Israeli NRG site reported.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/is ... eat-syria/

European rabbis president Pinchas Goldschmidt

"We fight together with our muslim brothers against old Europe... muslims are our natural allies"

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:35 am

The flying spaghetti monster is not gluten free.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

binocular
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:57 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 pm
1/The tax they paid came in replacement of the zakat, which is what the Muslims had to pay.
2/They were exempted from military service and their freedom to practice their religion protected, as long as they paid this tax. Don't you pay tax in exchange for law and order, in your country?
This is missing the point.
One thing is to pay taxes in a country you've lived in and that has had the same national/religious rule for as long as you can remember (or at least for a relevant portion of your life), and you are a member of that nation/religion.
It's something quite different for your country to be occupied and taken over by another country, and you then having to bow to the new ruler and the system they impose, the nationality/religion of the new ruler being foreign to you.

It's one thing to (freely) move to a foreign country and abide by their rules (including their rules for immigrants such as yourself).
And it's something quite different for your country to be occupied, in a hostile takeover, by a foreign country, and you then having to abide by those imposed rules (or face punishment).

Your line of reasoning simply comes down to "Might makes right."
There may be no compulsion in Islam (or religion in general), but there is the equivalent of "peer pressure".
So? How is this specific to islam, and how does it warrant islam-bashing by Buddhists?
Nobody said it was specific to Islam. The discussion here is now focused on Muslims/Islam. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
and how does it warrant islam-bashing by Buddhists?
That's unwarranted. Nobody said it warrants "islam-bashing by Buddhists".
lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:42 pm
One more misrepresentation. A few texts from the 7th century do mention that non-Muslims should be humiliated, but no Muslim today gives credence to such texts, just as no Christian gives credence to what Torquemada wrote.
Most Catholics I know live Torquemada's spirit (even if they don't even know who he was).
So why does Torquemada not concern you, but this does?
Simply because the discussion here is now focused on Muslims. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
You are implying that there is only one way of being a faithful Muslim, and it is the ugly way that you're striving to present as the only true one.

Why ugly? It may be ugly in accordance with some humanist sensitivites. But beyond those, it's just an evolutionary advantageous survival strategy. I'm quite sure that (Abrahamic) monotheists will take over the world, because only they have the sufficient survival motivation.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:57 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:55 pm
1/The tax they paid came in replacement of the zakat, which is what the Muslims had to pay.
2/They were exempted from military service and their freedom to practice their religion protected, as long as they paid this tax. Don't you pay tax in exchange for law and order, in your country?
This is missing the point.
I think you are the one drifting away from the original point, as you go along. We were talking about there being no compulsion in religion, and now you take issue with the fact that a country has been invaded. If you do this, always shifting the focus of your accusations to something new, the debate will go on forever.
One thing is to pay taxes in a country you've lived in and that has had the same national/religious rule for as long as you can remember (or at least for a relevant portion of your life), and you are a member of that nation/religion.
But that was precisely the case for the majority of non-Muslims living in, say Muslim Spain. Most were born and raised under Muslim rule and never knew anything else. I think you're trying really hard to make the islamic expansions look different from what has happened in Middle-Age Europe. If anything, they have been more tolerante and protective of minorities than the Christians...

There may be no compulsion in Islam (or religion in general), but there is the equivalent of "peer pressure".
So? How is this specific to islam, and how does it warrant islam-bashing by Buddhists?
Nobody said it was specific to Islam. The discussion here is now focused on Muslims/Islam. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
You're not answering. There is the equivalent of peer pressure. So? What is your point?

Most Catholics I know live Torquemada's spirit (even if they don't even know who he was).
My family is Catholic, I grew up in a highly religious catholic area, went to church every Sunday up until age 18, and this is simply not my experience.
So why does Torquemada not concern you, but this does?
Simply because the discussion here is now focused on Muslims. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
This was directed at Modus Ponens, and I really doubt his answer would be the same as yours.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:26 pm

lostitude wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm
Most Catholics I know live Torquemada's spirit (even if they don't even know who he was).
This was directed at Modus Ponens, and I really doubt his answer would be the same as yours.
I find it ironic how the Anti-Islam-ists keep referring to people like Torquemada & Adolf Hitler with the assumption they are not thinking & not behaving similar to Torquemada & Adolf Hitler. :roll:
Tomás de Torquemada (Thomas of Torquemada), O.P. (/ˌtɔːrkəˈmɑːdə/ Spanish: [toɾkeˈmaða]; 1420 – September 16, 1498) was a Castilian Dominican friar, and the first Grand Inquisitor in Spain's movement to homogenize religious practices with those of the Catholic Church in the late 15th century, otherwise known as the Spanish Inquisition.

Mainly because of persecution, Muslims and Jews in Spain at that time found it socially, politically, and economically expedient to convert to Catholicism, (see Converso, Morisco, and Marrano). The existence of superficial converts (i.e., Crypto-Jews) was perceived by the Spanish monarchs of that time (principally King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella) as a threat to the religious and social life of Spain. This led Torquemada, who himself had converso ancestors, to be one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree that expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492.

Torquemada was born in 1420, either in Valladolid, Old Castile, in the Kingdom of Castile, or in the nearby small village of Torquemada. He came from a family of conversos (converts from Judaism)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:37 pm

lostitude wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:35 pm
I think you are the one drifting away from the original point, as you go along. We were talking about there being no compulsion in religion, and now you take issue with the fact that a country has been invaded. If you do this, always shifting the focus of your accusations to something new, the debate will go on forever.
I simply clarified a point. I don't have a fully worked out stance on the matter in advance. I take it this is a discussion, not a debate.
I think you're trying really hard to make the islamic expansions look different from what has happened in Middle-Age Europe.
I'm sorry you think that, and I think you're ascribing to me a more fixed stance than I actually have.

Personally, if having to choose, I would actually prefer Islam over any form of Christianity (although I'm not fond of either Islam or Christianity).
So? How is this specific to islam, and how does it warrant islam-bashing by Buddhists?
Nobody said it was specific to Islam. The discussion here is now focused on Muslims/Islam. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
You're not answering. There is the equivalent of peer pressure. So? What is your point?
My point is that while some are defending Islam as the best thing that has ever happened to planet Earth, I think it's not much different from the other religions.
Most Catholics I know live Torquemada's spirit (even if they don't even know who he was).
My family is Catholic, I grew up in a highly religious catholic area, went to church every Sunday up until age 18, and this is simply not my experience.
Try growing up as a non-Catholic among Catholics.
So why does Torquemada not concern you, but this does?
Simply because the discussion here is now focused on Muslims. We can also focus on Catholics, Hindus etc., if you'd like.
This was directed at Modus Ponens, and I really doubt his answer would be the same as yours.
I think that in these discussions, some emphases happen artificially and unintentionally, simply due to discussing one topic at a time.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:17 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:37 pm
Personally, if having to choose, I would actually prefer Islam over any form of Christianity (although I'm not fond of either Islam or Christianity).
In its pure doctrinal form, Christianity is closer to Buddhism than Islam because Christianity teaches liberation of mind via loving-kindness where as Islam only teaches worldly morality. However, as worldly institutions, I would probably agree Christianity was the most destructive & intolerant. As a worldly institution, Christianity manifested as Judaism on steroids. While Judaism was only a totalitarian tribal religion, which imposed its totalitarianism only upon the Jewish people, Christianity as a worldly institutional was universal totalitarianism & laid waste to every alien culture & religion in its imperialist path.
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:37 pm
My point is that while some are defending Islam as the best thing that has ever happened to planet Earth, I think it's not much different from the other religions.
I doubt anyone here is asserting Islam is the best thing that ever happened; otherwise we would be Muslims. I think the Islam defenders here are merely saying Islam is more humane, moral, tolerant & secular that the Islamophobics are claiming. More importantly, we Islam defenders don't want to make the kamma that supports immoral or unwarranted wars killing millions of Muslim people. We have hiri-ottappa.

For example, recently, ISIS apologized to Israel, which shows even ISIS has a good side (in that they respect the hand that feeds them). That ISIS regretted an incident with Israel shows even these head-choppers can develop hiri-ottappa, at least towards Israel. ;) :|
Ex-defense minister says IS ‘apologized’ to Israel for November clash
Moshe Ya'alon's office refuses to elaborate after alluding to contact with terror group

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defens ... ber-clash/
ISIS FIGHTERS REGRET ATTACKING ISRAEL AND HAVE 'APOLOGIZED', FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER SAYS
BY TOM O'CONNOR ON 4/27/17 AT 1:52 PM

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-fighters-r ... ter-591020
Israel also allows ISIS to live on their borders in the Golan & elsewhere, which shows Judaism is more tolerant than Christianity. The Old Testament states about the foreign stranger in Israel: "Love thy neighbor as they self".
There have long been questions about why ISIS on the Golan has not clashed with Israel.

In unclear comments in April, former defense minister Moshe Ya’alon referenced the November 2016 clashes with ISIS and said: “ISIS opened fire and apologized.”

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Golan- ... els-515888

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:57 am

Doodoot is in full propogandic drag. Spreading laughable rumors and ridiculous conclusions. Really people, beware of this drivel he is dishing out. IS apologized to Israel?.....showing that IS has a good side?...that IS has regret???? Israel let's IS live on their borders show that judaism is more tolerant than christianity?

REally people, this is the stuff of a saturay night live spoof of idiot wind analysis of recent events......except its not funny.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:08 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:57 am
Doodoot is in full propogandic drag. Spreading laughable rumors and ridiculous conclusions. Really people, beware of this drivel he is dishing out. IS apologized to Israel?.....showing that IS has a good side?...that IS has regret???? Israel let's IS live on their borders show that judaism is more tolerant than christianity?
REally people, this is the stuff of a saturay night live spoof of idiot wind analysis of recent events......except its not funny.
I normally don't like to post in these kinds of threads, but chownah is right, DooDoot appears to be looking for the most obscure, unsubstantiated reports he can find. I'm sure glad DooDoot isn't in charge of Noble Prize awards; he might give daesh the Noble Peace Prize. :lol:

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:13 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:57 am
IS apologized to Israel?........that IS has regret????
This was reported by the Israel media, as posted in the links. Remember, Mahayana teaches all beings have seeds of bodhicitta. :namaste:

Image
DNS wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:08 am
he might give daesh the Noble Peace Prize. :lol:
Maybe an Academy (Oscar) Award. :toast:



DNS wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:08 am
DooDoot appears to be looking for the most obscure, unsubstantiated reports he can find.
The reports I posted were from mainstream Israeli media sources therefore examples of prosemitism & Jewish compassion. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu showing compassion & metta below for those (Salafi tourists to Syria) oppressed by the Syrian government. Its difficult to imagine Christians helping these Salafi Wahhabi Freedom Fighters. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appears to be a master of Brahma Vihara :heart:
Israel acknowledges it is helping Syrian rebel fighters

Defense minister says Jerusalem assists insurgents in exchange for promise Druze will be kept out of harm's way...

https://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-sy ... raeli-aid/
Israel has opened its borders with Syria in order to provide medical treatment to Nusra Front and al-Qaida fighters wounded in the ongoing civil war, according to The Wall Street Journal.

The prominent American newspaper reported that Nusra Front, the Sunni Muslim al-Qaida offshoot which is currently fighting the Iranian-backed axis of Bashar Assad and Hezbollah, "hasn't bothered Israel since seizing the border area last summer" along the Golan Heights.

While Israel views al-Qaida and its allies as enemies, it is far more disturbed by what it views as an even bigger menace – Iran and its proxies. According to The Wall Street Journal, this attitude has caused tension with the United States, which has also targeted al-Qaida and Nusra Front fighters in Syria.

Amos Yadlin, the former military intelligence chief who is currently in the running to be defense minister should the Zionist Union, led by Isaac Herzog, succeed in defeating incumbent Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the elections next week, told the Journal that Hezbollah and Iran "are the major threat to Israel, much more than the radical Sunni Islamists, who are also an enemy."

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Report ... war-393862
Saving their sworn enemy: Heartstopping footage shows Israeli commandos rescuing wounded men from Syrian warzone - but WHY are they risking their lives for Islamic militants?

* Elite Israeli troops rescue wounded Syrians from the world's worst war almost every night

* They have saved more than 2,000 people since 2013, at a cost of 50 million shekels (£8.7million)

* Many are enemies of Israel and some may even be fighters for groups affiliated to Al Qaeda

* MailOnline embedded with Israeli commandos stationed on the border between Israel and Syria

* Dramatic video filmed by MailOnline and the Israeli army shows these operations taking place

* Irael says that the operation is purely humanitarian but analysts believe Israel also has strategic reasons

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z50pfDgMLO
The former head of Israel's intelligence agency Mossad defends the country's treatment of al-Nusra Front fighters on the Syrian border.

In this web extra, Efraim Halevy tells Mehdi Hasan that he is not concerned that Israel had treated fighters in Syria from al-Nusra Front, which some say is al-Qaeda's Syrian branch.

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/upf ... 44269.html
Dramatic video shows IDF mission to rescue wounded Syrian rebels ...
Video for israeli commandos save islamic militants▶ 2:48
www.israelnationalnews.com › All News › Inside Israel
Dec 9, 2015
Rare video highlights controversial Israeli policy to treat rebels fighting Assad - many of whom are themselves ...

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News ... spx/204631

Image
GOLAN HEIGHTS — At a cabinet meeting on Sunday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reconfirmed Israel’s commitment to treating “war-wounded” fighters from Syria “as part of a humanitarian effort.” While Israel has claimed that it treats any fighter or civilian who makes it to the demarcation line between Israel and Syria through the contested Golan Heights area, evidence continues to demonstrate that those Israel treats are almost exclusively terrorist-linked opposition fighters – a fact which makes Israel’s claims of humanitarianism difficult to justify.

Israel’s treatment of wounded Syrian “rebels” has received minimal media attention, with a small number of reports describing the initiative as “quiet” and taking place in “secret military hospitals.” According to reports from pro-Israel outlets, wounded fighters are rescued via unmarked “Israeli army vehicles” that enter “Syria to pick up injured rebels.” The hospitals where the wounded are treated are concentrated along the Golan Heights, a part of Syria that has remained under Israeli occupation for several decades.

Since 2013, al-Qaeda-affiliated terrorist groups have dominated the “eight-square-kilometer separation zone on the Golan” where Israel has been extracting Syrian “rebels” for treatment in field hospitals. If they are not severely injured, they are then returned to Syria, where they resume fighting.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-rec ... rs/226714/
:heart: Image :heart: Image :heart:

:namaste:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:57 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:58 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:42 pm
I can find the quote shortly, but there exists a theologounemon popular in Protestant Revivalist circles, which justifies damnation in a way similar to the above.
You'll find no end of quotes in this 140-page thesis on the subject:

Trevor Johnson, Do the Saints in Heaven Behold the Sufferings of the Damned, And How Do They Respond?

Before I read it I'd always thought that the idea of the blessed in heaven rejoicing at the torments of the damned in hell, though popular and normative in Islam, was in Christianity confined to Tertullian, Calvinism and Jansenism. It seems I was wrong and the idea is actually much more widely shared by Christian heavyweights — including even Aquinas.
If I may digress futher bhante, at the same time, however, there are rival theologoumena, such as that which understands the fires of hell to be the very same warmths of God's love which permeates heaven. As such, the experience of "God/heaven/the kingdom" is conditioned by the individual's karma, essentially, though they would never use the word karma. Those sinful cannot bear the love, cannot bear the self-reflection inherent in receiving such complete unconditional love, and experience God's love as the fires of hell. That is also a well-established theologoumenon which I would say constitutes a rival teaching. There is similarly numerous figures of repute who taught Christian dharmas of universal salvation like Origen. Christians have to decide for themselves which is authoritative and which needs drawing out.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by chownah » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:25 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:57 pm
.... that which understands the fires of hell to be the very same warmths of God's love which permeates heaven.
I hope you don't mind me saying so but this really does sound like something that mark twain could have written about....something like "on a cold morning in heaven they just throw a couple of extra sinners on the fire".
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