Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mr Man
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:42 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am
For exampe, if the UK authorities claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK, then they are doing a clear disservice to the British citizens. Pointing this out is not bigotd or intolerant. It's common sense.
Hi Modus
Do the UK authorities "claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"?

alfa
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by alfa » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:14 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:30 am
Greetings Alfa,
alfa wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:12 am
Probably because most people who 'critique' Islam are not interested in critiquing Islam at all. That is just excuse to demonize Muslims.
Have you actually asked them their motives, or have you just decided to be totally lacking in charity and cast this aspersion upon them?
alfa wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:12 am
The proof is right here in this thread - they talk about Mohammad and Aisha, whether she was too young etc. Now let's say Mohammad was a pervert. Let's say Aisha was a child. Now what you have accomplished? You've managed to create a (false) perception in the minds of 21st century people that most Muslims living today don't belong here, and instead belong to a primitive age.
That's an interesting conflation on your part. I've seen no one saying Muslims are automatically barbaric just because aspects of Islamic doctrine and history are. In fact, many Muslims (and ex-Muslims) have the courage to stand up to such practices and insist upon reform. Can we therefore not critique female genital mutilation, stonings, child brides, Sharia Law, throwing homosexuals off cliffs and buildings etc. just because indirectly, someone's feelings might get hurt? You do know that most of the victims of Islam are actually Muslim, don't you?

If so, we do indeed live in crazy times, where the coddling of feelings is prioritized over the right to life and the right to not be mutilated, enslaved, stoned, punished for being raped etc.

Metta,
Paul. :)
It's a subconscious process. If you repeatedly focus on the bad things in Islam (under the pretext of critiquing it, of course), then the general population will start believing that Muslims are just as bad. This conflation takes place at the subconscious level, so people may not even be aware of it happening.

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:42 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am
For exampe, if the UK authorities claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK, then they are doing a clear disservice to the British citizens. Pointing this out is not bigotd or intolerant. It's common sense.
Hi Modus
Do the UK authorities "claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"?
They have barred Robert Spencer from entering, while allowing hundreds of ISIS jihadists to return and remain in the UK. If they did not claim it, they did worse: they acted in acordance to it. Do you welcome ISIS jihadists in the UK, Mr Man?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:27 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:42 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am
For exampe, if the UK authorities claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK, then they are doing a clear disservice to the British citizens. Pointing this out is not bigotd or intolerant. It's common sense.
Hi Modus
Do the UK authorities "claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"?
The point may be that banning a person from the UK for possible speech unpleasantries, but not banning many persons who actually plan & then murder - is a cowardly way to run a country.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

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Mr Man
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:33 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:42 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am
For exampe, if the UK authorities claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK, then they are doing a clear disservice to the British citizens. Pointing this out is not bigotd or intolerant. It's common sense.
Hi Modus
Do the UK authorities "claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"?
They have barred Robert Spencer from entering, while allowing hundreds of ISIS jihadists to return and remain in the UK. If they did not claim it, they did worse: they acted in acordance to it. Do you welcome ISIS jihadists in the UK, Mr Man?
So ""claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"? was a straw man?

It's kind of ironic when you said in the same paragraph "lies are so dangerous". Why don't you stick to truth Modus?

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:36 pm

Will wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:27 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:42 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:40 am
For exampe, if the UK authorities claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK, then they are doing a clear disservice to the British citizens. Pointing this out is not bigotd or intolerant. It's common sense.
Hi Modus
Do the UK authorities "claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"?
The point may be that banning a person from the UK for possible speech unpleasantries, but not banning many persons who actually plan & then murder - is a cowardly way to run a country.
If they are returning jihadis I guess they are UK citizens.

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:02 pm

Garrib wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:12 am
IMO demonizing Muslims is unskillful.
Which muslims are being demonized? The communists muslims, the social democrat muslims, the social liberal muslims, the liberal muslims, the libertarian muslims, the conservative muslims, the ultraconservative muslims, the fascist muslims, or the jihadist muslims? Is it the jihadist muslims, the fanatic muslims, the devout muslims, the non-devout muslims, the cultural muslims, or the muslim reformers? Muslims do not all think alike, neither politically, nor religiously.

Christianity was brought to the 20th century by criticism of their ultraconservative doctrines and fascist actions, which were incompatiple with a liberal humanist secular democracy, and incompatible with many of Jesus' own teachings. This included criticising the most violent and irrational aspects of the old testament. It was not a demonization of christians, but a harsh criticism of the harmful components of christian doctrines and those who acted on them, or offered cover to those who acted on them by believing these harmful doctrines. If these criticisms had not been made, we would still be living in christian theocracies in the West. That would be bad for most of us.

This process has to be applied now to islam because it is not yet in the 20th century. Among the people who will benefit the most from the end of islamic fascist theocracies will be muslims. Criticism of this kind is bound to upset some people. It's a natural and unavoidable part of this process. The three options in front of us are to ignore the problem of islamic fascism, to verbally criticize it, or to take military action. It seems clear to me that the most moral course of action is to verbally criticize it, while calling for people to stop ignoring the problem which is making so many people suffer, and also criticizing military actions not taken in self defense.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:04 pm

I'm damn well certain the UK has not allowed any known ISIS fighters to return to the UK, obviously they're talking about unknown ISIS fighters probably being among people returning to the UK. Robert Spencer is a known hatemonger, obviously he deserves to be banned, just like any real ISIS fighters that slipped in under the radar.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:33 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:23 pm

They have barred Robert Spencer from entering, while allowing hundreds of ISIS jihadists to return and remain in the UK. If they did not claim it, they did worse: they acted in acordance to it. Do you welcome ISIS jihadists in the UK, Mr Man?
So ""claim that Robert Spencer is more dangerous than the hundreds of ISIS jihadists that have returned to the UK"? was a straw man?

It's kind of ironic when you said in the same paragraph "lies are so dangerous". Why don't you stick to truth Modus?
It was not a straw man. It was an unintentional steel man (english is not my first language). If the UK authorities had claimed such a thing, but barred the entrance in the UK of hundreds of ISIS jihadists, while allowing Robert Spencer to enter the UK, then it would not have been nearly as dangerous as acting as if the claim is true _ which they did. And people have been dying in th UK in these last months because of this kind of irresponsability. Are you more concerned with semanthics and perceived mean words, or are you more concerned with deaths, such as in the Manchester attack?

Again, the three options in front of us are to ignore the problem of islamic fascism, to verbally criticize it, or to take military action. It seems clear to me that the most moral course of action is to verbally criticize it, while calling for people to stop ignoring the problem which is making so many people suffer, and also criticizing military actions not taken in self defense. What do you think is the most moral course of action?
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:44 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:04 pm
I'm damn well certain the UK has not allowed any known ISIS fighters to return to the UK, obviously they're talking about unknown ISIS fighters probably being among people returning to the UK. Robert Spencer is a known hatemonger, obviously he deserves to be banned, just like any real ISIS fighters that slipped in under the radar.
Unfortunately their gross negligence has allowed it.

"Just one in eight of the 400 British foreign fighters who have travelled to Syria and since returned home has been successfully prosecuted.

Figures disclosed by the Home Office show that only 54 fighters from the UK suspected of having fought in Syria and Iraq have been convicted of an offence.

Security services estimate that since 2012, 400 British Muslims who have joined terrorist groups such as Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) and al-Qaeda have returned to the UK.

The official statistics will raise serious concerns over the failure of the authorities to keep track of dangerous jihadists in Britain.

Security experts told The Telegraph how the low prosecution rate showed for the first time that many foreign fighters returning from Syria who posed a real risk were now “off the radar”.

Experts on the conflict say the number who have returned could be as high as 800 to 1,000. Some are known to have faked their own deaths and slipped back into Britain using new identities.

The figures were disclosed by Lord Keen of Elie, a Home Office spokesman in the Lords, who made public the number of prosecutions in response to a parliamentary question.

He said the Crown Prosecution Service was also in the process of prosecuting a further 13 cases involving 30 defendants. The Public Prosecution Service for Northern Ireland is also dealing with one Syria-related prosecution.

Prof Anthony Glees, head of the University of Buckingham’s Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies, said: “The hundreds of British citizens who have gone to Syria are highly dangerous. The fact so few are being prosecuted when they return is clearly very unsatisfactory and will be very alarming to many people.

“We need to know why so many haven’t been prosecuted. It suggests to me that they have have simply gone off the radar while our security services try to play catch-up.”

Chris Phillips, former head of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, said the low prosecution rate was the tip of the iceberg.

“I don’t believe the UK knows how many people have left for Syria or indeed come back,” he said. “There are many ways of getting back into the UK avoiding checks, including bus routes and ferry crossings. What we have to avoid is a false sense of security just because we have a stretch of water between us and Europe.”

The Telegraph is running a “Border Security” campaign highlighting the porous nature of Britain’s borders and urging the Government to tighten controls to keep out Jihadists.

Khalid Mahmood, Labour MP for Birmingham, Perry Barr, a constituency with a high proportion of Muslims, said the low prosecution rate demonstrated the failure of border controls.

“It is a shambles,” said Mr Mahmood. “The Government is not on top of this. The real problem is we don’t know who is coming back and where they are coming back from.”
"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05 ... nd-convic/


I understand the people who do not like Robert Spencer, but he has not killed anyone, nor caused anyone to kill. We should get our priorities straight and tackle the real dangers. We are already at the point of dodging terrorist attacks with chemical weapons, so it is unforgivingly irresponsible to have this kind of negligence in border control.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/03/asia/ ... index.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 86121.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... en-wallace

-------------------------------

EDIT: In order to tackle these issues, it would be helpful for us to return to the central aspects of this DW topic.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:08 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm
Again, the three options in front of us are to ignore the problem of islamic fascism, to verbally criticize it, or to take military action. It seems clear to me that the most moral course of action is to verbally criticize it, while calling for people to stop ignoring the problem which is making so many people suffer, and also criticizing military actions not taken in self defense.

What do you think is the most moral course of action?
1. To figure out the Meaning of Life. As long as the Meaning of Life is not clear, everything one does is bound to be unsatisfactory in some essential way.

2. To figure out whether and how the West has provoked or justified Islamic vengeance. Not just in terms of funding and training Islamic terrorists, but in terms of Westerners unduly assuming their moral and other supremacy.

3. To reflect on kamma and rebirth.

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:32 pm

For myself, his fondness for war, siege and subjugation of people is the main reason why I do not respect him. He was just a very confused worldling, like most of us - only with tremendous ambition and craving for worldly power.

Here is a timeline of his mature lifetime, being born in 570. Depending on how you count, there are at least ten wars or sieges he led or approved of:
624 The Nakhla raid and the beginning of violence in the name of Islam
624 The Battle of Badr: the Muslims overcome great odds to defeat the pagan Meccans
624 Muhammad and the Muslims besiege the Jewish Qaynuqa tribe and exile them from Medina
625 The Battle of Uhud: the pagan Meccans defeat the Muslims
625 Siege and exile from Medina of the Jewish Nadir tribe
627 The Battle of the Trench: the Jewish Qurayzah tribe betrays Muhammad
627 Muhammad beheads the males of the Qurayzah tribe and enslaves the women and children
628 Muhammad concludes the Treaty of Hudaybiyya with the pagan Meccans
628 Muhammad and the Muslims besiege the Khaybar oasis and exile the Jews from it
628 Muhammad is poisoned at Khaybar
630 Muhammad and the Muslims conquer Mecca
630 The Muslims prevail in the Battle of Hunayn and conquer Ta'if; Muhammad becomes the master of Arabia
631 The Arabian tribes remaining outside Islamic rule accept Islam
631 Warfare against the Christians: the expedition to Tabuk
632 Muhammad dies in Medina on June 8
Last edited by Will on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Mr Man » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:57 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm
Are you more concerned with semanthics and perceived mean words, or are you more concerned with deaths, such as in the Manchester attack?
Of course people being murdered is significantly more alarming than "semanthics and perceived mean words" but you are putting forward a false dichotomy.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm
Again, the three options in front of us are to ignore the problem of islamic fascism, to verbally criticize it, or to take military action. It seems clear to me that the most moral course of action is to verbally criticize it, while calling for people to stop ignoring the problem which is making so many people suffer, and also criticizing military actions not taken in self defense. What do you think is the most moral course of action?
The most moral course of action is be a good person.
This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness,
And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech,
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied,
Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful,
Not proud or demanding in nature.
Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove.
Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .amar.html

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:35 pm

I have justified my description of Muhammad with canonical sources. I have made my stance against islamofascism clear and morally justified. I have warned in the past about the numerous problems and dangers that we are now living with in our democracies. I am warning about future attacks with chemical weapons with examples of thwarted attacks of that nature in recent months. With this information do what you find to be most beneficial.

If you want to attack the bringer of bad news, I ask you to sort your priorities. People are dying due to inaction, and due to criticism of those who act nonviolently.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:12 pm

Greetings MP,

Well said.

That said, I think it's time we get back specifically to the topic of Mohammad, and the extent to which he may or may not be worthy of respect.

:focus:

Discussion about current and future Islamic threats etc. is best suited to the News, Current Events & Politics section.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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