the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: I can recall at least a couple of times someone telling me that they are vegetarian while they are chewing on a chicken wing. They should at least put the chicken wing down while making that claim. :tongue:


If they had their mouth full, maybe you misheard them saying that the chicken was vegetarian... ;)


:thumbsup: :D

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:24 am

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Why am I not a vegan? Just as most diets fail, most people who try going vegan or vegetarian end up eating meat again.

If going meat-free is a healthier, more ethical choice, why insist on being so restrictive as to prevent a person from actually being able to practice it?

Less restrictive than veganism, vegetarianism is healthier and more humane than the typical American diet. The Buddha taught against killing animals, not eggs and dairy.

Yes, and the typical american diet is healthier and more humane than the typical eskimo or inuit diet.
chownah


I don't live in an environment where an eskimo diet is necessary.

Eskimos don't live in an environment where an eskimo diet is necessary.
chownah

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Dhammanando
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:27 am

Santi253 wrote:The Humane Research Council is a non-profit that uses market research techniques to assess public opinions related to animal issues. Their mission is to provide information animal protection organizations can use to more effectively spread their messages. And for this study, they recruited a group of top flight social scientists to design a survey to examine differences between current and ex-vegetarians and vegans.


The article then goes on to state that vegans are less prone to backsliding than vegetarians:

Vegans Vs. Vegetarians - Vegans are less like to backslide than vegetarians. While 86% of vegetarians returned to meat, only 70% of vegans did.


Which rather undermines your stated reason for not being a vegan:

Santi253 wrote:Why am I not a vegan? Just as most diets fail, most people who try going vegan or vegetarian end up eating meat again.

If going meat-free is a healthier, more ethical choice, why insist on being so restrictive as to prevent a person from actually being able to practice it?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:20 am

I tried being a vegan but I missed ice-cream too much.... :embarassed: :lol:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Disciple » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:40 am

Spiny Norman wrote:I tried being a vegan but I missed ice-cream too much.... :embarassed: :lol:

For me it was beer marinated steaks :P

justindesilva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby justindesilva » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:17 am

Sam Vara wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: I can recall at least a couple of times someone telling me that they are vegetarian while they are chewing on a chicken wing. They should at least put the chicken wing down while making that claim. :tongue:


If they had their mouth full, maybe you misheard them saying that the chicken was vegetarian... ;)


My farmer friend told me a conversation with his cow. And when the cow came to know that his owner is a vegetarian she (cow) inquired why . When this owner replied that it is because he loves the cows, the cow too replied that , that is the very reason the cow eats grass because, she (cow) loves the owner.

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:56 am

Spiny Norman wrote:I tried being a vegan but I missed ice-cream too much.... :embarassed: :lol:


There have been great advances in vegan ice cream the past couple years. Even Haagen Daz now makes vegan versions. :lol:

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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Sam Vara » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:54 pm

justindesilva wrote:My farmer friend told me a conversation with his cow. And when the cow came to know that his owner is a vegetarian she (cow) inquired why . When this owner replied that it is because he loves the cows, the cow too replied that , that is the very reason the cow eats grass because, she (cow) loves the owner.


Excellent story - thank you!

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:14 pm

Here's a story about a farmer in the UK:

"Vegetarian farmer saves cow herd from abattoir by donating it to animal sanctuary"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/vegetarian-farmer-cow-herd-save-abattoir-jay-wilde-animal-sanctuary-bradley-nook-derbyshire-a7789131.html


:anjali:

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:27 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: For example, they could be counting as "vegetarian" people who just try it out for a week or two, perhaps to experiment or to lose some weight, etc.


I need to be careful not to tie my self-esteem to short-term weight loss. I am changing my diet for long-term health.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:49 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Which rather undermines your stated reason for not being a vegan:


Changing diet has to be personal, rather than one-size-fits-all, based on what a person is most likely to stick to over the long-term. Unlike vegans, I don't have a philosophical objection to eggs and dairy. I am changing my diet for my own personal health.

Egg whites and non-fat dairy products are a main source of protein in my mostly plant-based diet. I am basing this diet on the recommendations of Dr. Dean Ornish for those at risk for heart disease.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:55 pm

​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:30 am

I just realized that, for the last week, I've been eating yogurt with gelatin in it. What the heck? Is there such thing as vegetarian yogurt??? There's gelatin in sour cream too????

I've decided that I am not going to freak out over inadvertently purchasing items with trace amounts of gelatin in it. I became vegetarian for personal health first, and animal rights a distant second.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:51 am

I read that tuna fish can be helpful to weight loss, so I put a half a can of tuna in my salad just to try it. I hadn't eaten any sort of animal flesh for two weeks, and tuna used to be one of my favorite foods.

Instead of enjoying it, though, it made me feel disgusted, because I couldn't stop thinking about how this was a rotting, dead animal. It upset my stomach. I also felt bad about eating it, because even if the label says "dolphin-safe," that doesn't mean dolphins aren't killed in the process:

U.S. “dolphin-safe” tuna endangers the entire marine ecosystem. By narrowly focusing on fishing methods rather than results, today’s “dolphin-safe” labels permit and encourage fishing methods oblivious to the bycatch of sharks, turtles, juvenile tunas, sea birds and other sea life...

The truth is that under current U.S. labeling standards, bycatch, including that of dolphins, does in fact occur and is unknown in most cases.

In 2012, the World Trade Organization ruled, after a full review of all of the scientific and empirical evidence, that “dolphin-safe” tuna standards established by Congress in 1990, while effective in motivating change at the time, are now outdated and, in fact, deceptive to U.S. consumers. The reality is that the U.S. law and "dolphin-safe" policy ONLY certifies that no harm occurred to dolphins if the tuna were caught in the ETP fishery. It found that even when thousands of dolphins are killed in the course of fishing for tuna outside of the ETP, the canned tuna bears the “dolphin-safe” label under the current labeling standards. More than 98% of the tuna in the U.S. market today is sourced from these and other unmonitored and untracked fisheries where thousands of dolphins are killed every year.
http://www.ecosafetuna.org/case-for-eco ... -isnt.html


The average person doesn't know that the World Trade Organization ruled against dolphin-safe labeling as a deceptive practice.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:52 am

One thing I know for sure is that the Buddha was not a vegan. In the Pali scriptures, the Buddha eats rice mixed with milk, along with rice cakes and honey. The Buddha did teach, however, that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat.

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Dhammomhi
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Dhammomhi » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:07 am

is this the only place we can post about ontological veganism
well, it's against the 1st precept to kill and also, if i recall correctly, to encourage someone to kill. when you pay for an animal product -- meat, leather, anything (animal products are in many, many things), you're promoting the murder of animals for profit. if you're conscious about this process, you face a moral crisis. monks are of course exempt given they don't use money (unless seen, heard or suspected...)
buddhism leading to uncomfortable conclusions isn't an excuse to go easy on the rules
namo tassa bhagavato arahato sammā sambuddhassa

may you be loved; may you be happy.

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 8:42 am

At least in American culture, there's a perception that "real men" eat meat. Animal products, however, are one of the main causes of male impotence:

Conditions that affect the heart and its ability to pump blood well can cause impotence. Without enough blood flow to the penis, a person can’t achieve an erection.

Atherosclerosis, a condition that causes the blood vessels to become clogged, can cause impotence. High cholesterol and high blood pressure (hypertension) are also associated with increased risks for impotence.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... conditions


The Massachusetts Male Aging Study found a direct connection between diet and ED. Men in the study who ate plenty of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and avoided red meat and processed grains, were less likely to experience ED.
http://www.healthline.com/health/erecti ... -and-diet2


The only source of dietary cholesterol is animal products, and atherosclerosis is caused by fat in our blood vessels.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:12 am

The only source of dietary strychnine is plant products and it can cause death.
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:28 am

I don't judge people for eating meat, but I will say this: If you find dog meat to be morally repugnant, but you love eating cows, pigs, and chickens, then you are a hypocrite.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:32 am

chownah wrote:The only source of dietary strychnine is plant products and it can cause death.
chownah


Is it the cause of several of the most common diseases in the United States? Most sane people won't eat strychnine for dinner. They instead poison themselves more slowly with animal products. Your tendency to say the opposite of everything I say is childish.


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