Wat Dhammakaya

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form
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby form » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:13 am

ManEagle wrote:
form wrote: I also received a letter from them asking me to donate $2500. It is just a request as they are building a new facility in Singapore that has a hall capable of holding 500 people for meditation at any one time.


Rather than make rash judgements about this, I would very much like to see a copy of this 'letter' if you still have it, just to satisfy a curiosity. I find it hard to believe that any organisation, religious or not, would actually ask an individual to make a donation of a specific amount of money, especially a significantly large amount like this. I've heard of organisations 'suggesting' amounts to donate but this would normally be for services such as meditaion sessions etc. I don't know if it's allowed or even possible to post copies of letters on the forum but it would be interesting to see? Although, having said this, I know for a fact that my wife donated an amount similar to this some years back but I don't know if the specfic amount was requested by WPD.


I dun keep the letter after seeing it as I dun find anything wrong with it. As I have said fund are needed to build a new facility to house 500pax for meditation course at any one time. It must be about two years ago.

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:12 am

samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.

It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.


The Buddhas teaching is a scary thing? The Buddha gives a very detailed list in the pali canon of the various heaven realms you go to for donating.

"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, 'Giving is good.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'Giving is good,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Hours. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Contented devas. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who delight in creation. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who have power over the creations of others. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this, not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death,'

— nor with the thought, 'Giving is good,'

— nor with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued,'

— nor with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off,' nor with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamadaggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way this will be my distribution of gifts,'

— nor with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,'

— but with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahma's Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world.

"This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit."

— AN 7.49



What the miser fears,
that keeps him from giving,
is the very danger that comes
when he doesn't give.

— SN 1.32


No misers go
to the world of the devas.
Those who don't praise giving
are fools.
The enlightened
express their approval for giving
and so find ease
in the world beyond.

— Dhp 177

For one who desires long life, health, beauty, heaven, & noble birth, — lavish delights, one after another — the wise praise heedfulness in doing acts of merit. When heedful, wise, you achieve both kinds of benefit: benefits in this life, & benefits in lives to come. By breaking through to your benefit, you're called enlightened, wise.

— SN 3.17

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:55 am

A letter on the thai alliance of human rights website. Casualties are starting now. There has been a death. There is a picture on facebook of them bringing a TANK to the temple. :shock:

Thai Alliance for Human Rights letter to US State Department about Crisis at Wat Phra Dhammakaya

Dear Assistant Secretary Daniel R. Russel, State Department,

Hi, I am Ann Norman, Executive Director of the Thai Alliance for Human Rights. Please be aware that there is an emergency at Wat Prah Dhammakaya in Thailand. The Prime Minister and former coup leader Prayut Chan-o-cha is using Article 44 of the Interim Constitution (the Dictator’s Law, by which he gives himself the power to do anything he thinks necessary) to invade this gigantic, very modern, very wealthy Buddhist temple (in a compound of about 1.5 square miles) in order to arrest the temple’s hororary Abbot Phra Dhammachayo and charge him with embezzlement (he accepted a donation that had been embezzled and has since returned it – other more minor charges have been piled on.) The government has mobilized 20 teams of the Department of Special Investigations, 3,600 police officers and 900 soldiers to surround the temple and search it for the abbot, who may or may not be there. The members of the temple (ordinary laypeople who come and go, attending for a weekend or special event and returning home) view this as politically motivated harassment of their religion.

The Thai Alliance for Human Rights considers this huge mobilization just to charge one elderly abbot with a nonviolent crime to be an overreaction that risks a catastrophe. There is no downside to waiting it out. There is no ongoing crime that needs to be stopped. Already, social media shows that one girl was accidentally run over and killed by a huge military vehicle associated with this operation. There have been scuffles between monks and investigative agents and between laypeople and investigative agents. Because this involves religion and people’s fundamental beliefs, some followers claim they are willing to die for the principle that the government should not be interfering with their temple. There is also a widespread fear among members, who have poured their own money into building the temple, that the government will try first discredit the temple and then steal its assets. This fear is reasonable in light of the prosecution of ex-Prime Minister Yingluck for mismanagement of the rice scheme and the use of Article 44 to freeze her assets in connection with that case.

With so much at stake, we have the set-up for potential disaster. As you know, suppression of protests in Thailand often end violently and then no one is ever prosecuted. If anything goes wrong in this operation, the government would once again be absolved, this time by Article 44. We cannot let the rulers of Thailand continue to act with impunity. There has to be more respect for citizens and their rights to differing opinions and types of religion, and a commitment to the rule of law and equal treatment under the law.

Please recommend to the Thai government that they desist with their operation against Wat Phra Dhammakaya.

Thank you,

http://tahr-global.org/?p=32171

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gavesako
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby gavesako » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:10 pm

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.

It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.


The Buddhas teaching is a scary thing? The Buddha gives a very detailed list in the pali canon of the various heaven realms you go to for donating.

"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, 'Giving is good.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this gift with the thought, 'Giving is good,' on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Thirty-three. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'Giving is good,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas of the Hours. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Contented devas. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who delight in creation. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead... he gives a gift with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise'... on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the devas who have power over the creations of others. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Or, instead of thinking, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,' he gives a gift with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

"Having given this, not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death,'

— nor with the thought, 'Giving is good,'

— nor with the thought, 'This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued,'

— nor with the thought, 'I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off,' nor with the thought, 'Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past — Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamadaggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa, & Bhagu — in the same way this will be my distribution of gifts,'

— nor with the thought, 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,'

— but with the thought, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahma's Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world.

"This, Sariputta, is the cause, this is the reason, why a person gives a gift of a certain sort and it does not bear great fruit or great benefit, whereas another person gives a gift of the same sort and it bears great fruit and great benefit."

— AN 7.49



What the miser fears,
that keeps him from giving,
is the very danger that comes
when he doesn't give.

— SN 1.32


No misers go
to the world of the devas.
Those who don't praise giving
are fools.
The enlightened
express their approval for giving
and so find ease
in the world beyond.

— Dhp 177

For one who desires long life, health, beauty, heaven, & noble birth, — lavish delights, one after another — the wise praise heedfulness in doing acts of merit. When heedful, wise, you achieve both kinds of benefit: benefits in this life, & benefits in lives to come. By breaking through to your benefit, you're called enlightened, wise.

— SN 3.17



The Buddha affirmed the kammic results of actions such as giving, which will indeed transport one to the higher levels of samsara, but he did not make that the central point of his teaching or suggest that one should be satisfied with that. Just on the contrary, he warned that monks will become lax in the future due to seeking such gifts from the laypeople:

Anāgatabhaya Sutta
The Discourse on Future Dangers (4)
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 5-080.html
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts

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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:47 pm

Turmeric wrote:
samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:I stayed at a dhammakaya temple. Free transportation, free books, free food, free place to stay. Never had to donate anything. Never got a letter asking to donate anything.

It very much resembles Dhammakaya tendencies.

A Thai friend of mine went to Dhammakaya once. It turns out that a monk would guide him during his meditation. After about 20 minutes, the monk then suggested that it would be important for him to donate money to Dhammakaya, which would result in him reaching heaven after his death.

Scary thing.


The Buddhas teaching is a scary thing? The Buddha gives a very detailed list in the pali canon of the various heaven realms you go to for donating.

"Having given this gift seeking his own profit — with a mind attached [to the reward], seeking to store up for himself, [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death' — on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a returner, coming back to this world.

"Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached [to the reward], not seeking to store up for himself, nor [with the thought], 'I'll enjoy this after death.' Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, 'Giving is good.' He gives his gift — food, drink, clothing, a vehicle; a garland, perfume, & ointment; bedding, shelter, & a lamp — to a brahman or a contemplative. What do you think, Sariputta? Might a person give such a gift as this?"

"Yes, lord."

[...]

Like Ven. Gavesako mentioned, donating is but a small portion of what the Buddha taught—which Dhammakaya seems to have made central. Furthermore, what was considered as donations according to the Buddha's teaching and to the Buddha was food, housing, clothes fabrics, land, requisites, etc. It wasn't large somes of money.

Finally, for a monk, not only is requesting money—which Dhammakaya are commonly known to do—against the Vinaya, but it is based in greed and therefore shows to what extent Dhammakaya and Dhammakaya monks practice the teachings (a superficial one).

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:25 pm

The Buddha affirmed the kammic results of actions such as giving, which will indeed transport one to the higher levels of samsara, but he did not make that the central point of his teaching or suggest that one should be satisfied with that. Just on the contrary, he warned that monks will become lax in the future due to seeking such gifts from the laypeople:

Anāgatabhaya Sutta
The Discourse on Future Dangers (4)
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 5-080.html


The Buddha affirmed the kammic results of actions such as giving, which will indeed transport one to the higher levels of samsara, but he did not make that the central point of his teaching or suggest that one should be satisfied with that. Just on the contrary, he warned that monks will become lax in the future due to seeking such gifts from the laypeople:

Anāgatabhaya Sutta
The Discourse on Future Dangers (4)
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 5-080.html [/quote]

The Dhammakaya doesn't teach that people should be satisfied from donating money. They teach that meditation is the highest merit. The vice Abbot of Wat Phra Dhammakaya says this in one of his q&a videos on youtube. The story of the founder of the Dhammakaya is that he contemplated and saw that money and work wasn't really that important, so he went to ordain. Ajahn Martin, one of Luangtas students, was complaining at Wat Pa Baan Taad once, one of the most famous forest monasteries in thailand,that the westerners come and never donate. But is there ever a thread about how the forest tradition only cares about money and complains that people don't donate? Dhammakaya is completely singled out for just teaching Buddhism. And about that sutta you sent me where the Buddha is saying that monks will come to live in the cities, Wat Phra Dhammakaya has a forest monastery branch.

"Material wealth is so ingrained in man’s values that he loses touch with the reality and true purpose of life. In the end everyone must die. My father has died. My relatives have died. And when they died they could take nothing with them. What is the point of having all these possessions when you can’t enjoy them after your death? One day, I, too, must die. Haven’t I learned from my deceased father and relatives?”
He pondered about what he should do with his life, and came to the conclusion that there was nothing more worthwhile for him to do than pursuing a life of purity by becoming a monk. He made the resolution: “Please don’t let me die before I have a chance to ordain. Once I take ordination it will be for life.” From Lp Dhammajayos book beyond wisdom, which you can read for free on the internet.

And a picture below from one of the Dhammakayas forest monasteries.
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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Turmeric wrote:[...]

What someone (or in this case the leader of a large group) says and what people do are two entirely different things. Siphoning millions upon millions out of people (some even to financial ruin), and even having legal issues regarding very large sums of money—among other things—doesn't really go in line with what is taught by Dhammachayo and at Dhammakaya. Also, having one forest monastery out of thousands of monasteries doesn't really say much.

Someone can say anything at all, but if the actions don't follow, the words are meaningless.

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:18 pm

samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:[...]

What someone (or in this case the leader of a large group) says and what people do are two entirely different things. Siphoning millions upon millions out of people (some even to financial ruin), and even having legal issues regarding very large sums of money—among other things—doesn't really go in line with what is taught by Dhammachayo and at Dhammakaya. Also, having one forest monastery out of thousands of monasteries doesn't really say much.

Someone can say anything at all, but if the actions don't follow, the words are meaningless.


Siphoning millions and millions out of people? Samseva. What are you talking about? Why do you continually refuse to acknowledge the points any dhammakaya members make in this thread? I have told you that i know many dhammakaya monks and they have never suggested I donate anything. It has already been mentioned in this thread that Lp Dhammajayo said that people should not make themselves bankrupt donating to the temple. I sent you quotes from the Buddha teaching that you go to heaven from donating after you were insinuating that its evil to teach this.But you refuse to acknowledge that you made a mistake. You said something the Buddha himself explicitly taught, was a scary thing. And you have glossed over your mistake and are continuing to blame the dhammakaya.

Samseva, I'll tell you what. You go to thailand and take over Lp Dhammajayos position. You resurrect 1,900 abandoned temples in the country, run the v-star project with 1 million school children, offer pali scholarships to the monks, take care of 3 million dhammakaya members, take care of thousands of staff members in the temple, run the largest buddhist monastery in the world, propagate the religion to other countries, write books that are offered for free on the internet, organize 1,200 monk dhutanga walks, donate billions of baht to public charities, ordain 10,000 monks twice yearly, take care of thousands of dhammakaya branches in the country, run the worlds only all buddhist television channel, organize massive alms offerings for monks from 77 different provinces, while simultaneously defending yourself from media propaganda and a military junta trying to destroy you and your temple, and you do it without people donating any money to you. Wish you luck samseva! Come back to dhammawheel once you've resurrected your first Buddhist temple without the use of any money. Tell us how you did it. Lp Dhammajayos stated goal is world peace through inner peace and his actions are evidence that this is really what he is trying to do. He walks the walk and talks the talk.

Anyways. Dhammakaya monk shares the fear he has for his safety below, and pleas that article 44 be removed. The temple simply wanted the dsi to come give the abbot the charges at the temple, and they responded by invading the temple and issuing article 44, a law which allows the pm to do basically anything he wants. It could even potentially give him and his group the right to torture and kill the people in the temple. Why are 3,600 police, 900 soldiers, and 20 dsi teams invading a temple that was complying with them? Why would the prime minister risk his career and risk being accused of treason against the thai nation by issuing article 44, to simply arrest an elderly sick monk that is being charged with a silly nonviolent crime? Why do they want to get this abbot alone with them so much? What are they going to do when they get him alone? Poison him? Torture him into confessing something that he didn't do, and then use the confession to seize the temple? The former commander of the thai royal police has said that if he was Lp Dhammajayo, he would not turn himself into the police. And the former police commander insinuated that there could be something going on behind the scenes. Lawyer Arkom Rattanapojanaroj, said during an interview, that the abbot should not turn himself into the police because he has done nothing wrong. But actually, the charges against the abbot may have just been an excuse to raid the temple. Who knows what they are going to do now. "Money laundering" for money donated on live television in front of thousands of people. Yeah, I bet "money laundering" is the real reason they are trying to be alone inside one of the largest wealthiest temples in the world. :rofl:

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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:15 am

Turmeric wrote:[...]

Teaching me after I insinuate that monks concinving people to donate is evil (it kind of is, no?)? Glossing over my mistake? Did you even read what Ven. Gavesako posted, which refuted your whole post/lecture?

Dhammakaya is a huge organization which, whether or not you want to believe it, pushes its visitors and believers to donate money. You can find out about people who have given almost everything they own because they believe so much in Dhammakaya (there were even people in this thread who know people like this or had this happen to someone very close)—and that is regardless of what Dhammachayo says.

Dhammakaya is built like a buisness and it has highly knowledgable buisness people structuring its sources of income (which sounds weird for a monastery, but that is what it actually is). And then there is the whole PR aspect: large gatherings to attract media, superficial "thudongs" (walking on rose petals while holding an umbrella, seriously?) and so many other things. Not only is it similar to a business, but it is reminiscent of cults such as Scientology. Or are you going to defend Scientology, with all the good they do and the many people they help as well?

So you can post random Dhammakaya images/propaganda and make conspiracy theories and say that Dhammachayo's crimes were very small and that Dhammakaya don't ask for donations (seriously, does that even sound believable with all of the billions they have?). I see it how it is, with accounts from people who actually aren't already intertwined with Dhammakaya—and most importantly, with actual knowledge of the teachings of the Buddha, which with such knowledge, is easy to see how Dhammakaya isn't in line with Buddhist teachings at all (no, donating money is not a crucial aspect of Buddhism, and meditating while imaging a crystal ball and various other imaginary visualizations/mental distortions is not part of the teachings).

And if you are going to reply to something out of my post (ignoring this would kind of ring a bell), could you please ellaborate on how the “Millionaire Forever” Dhammakaya program is not a canny way to periodically and automatically get money out of its beleivers? So you have been saying for the past 4-5 posts that Dhammakaya doesn't ask for money?

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:49 am

samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:[...]

Teaching me after I insinuate that monks concinving people to donate is evil (it kind of is, no?)? Glossing over my mistake? Did you even read what Ven. Gavesako posted, which refuted your whole post/lecture?

Dhammakaya is a huge organization which, whether or not you want to believe it, pushes its visitors and believers to donate money. You can find out about people who have given almost everything they own because they believe so much in Dhammakaya (there were even people in this thread who know people like this or had this happen to someone very close)—and that is regardless of what Dhammachayo says.

Dhammakaya is built like a buisness and it has highly knowledgable buisness people structuring its sources of income (which sounds weird for a monastery, but that is what it actually is). And then there is the whole PR aspect: large gatherings to attract media, superficial "thudongs" (walking on rose petals while holding an umbrella, seriously?) and so many other things. Not only is it similar to a business, but it is reminiscent of cults such as Scientology. Or are you going to defend Scientology, with all the good they do and the many people they help as well?

So you can post random Dhammakaya images/propaganda and make conspiracy theories and say that Dhammachayo's crimes were very small and that Dhammakaya don't ask for donations (seriously, does that even sound believable with all of the billions they have?). I see it how it is, with accounts from people who actually aren't already intertwined with Dhammakaya—and most importantly, with actual knowledge of the teachings of the Buddha, which with such knowledge, is easy to see how Dhammakaya isn't in line with Buddhist teachings at all (no, donating money is not a crucial aspect of Buddhism, and meditating while imaging a crystal ball and various other imaginary visualizations/mental distortions is not part of the teachings).

And if you are going to reply to something out of my post (ignoring this would kind of ring a bell), could you please ellaborate on how the “Millionaire Forever” Dhammakaya program is not a canny way to periodically and automatically get money out of its beleivers? So you have been saying for the past 4-5 posts that Dhammakaya doesn't ask for money?


Ven. Gavesako did not refute what I posted. He said the that donation is not a central point of the Buddhas teachings nor the goal. The dhammakayas goal is not donation, it is meditation and nirvana. If critics read dhammakaya books they would see the vast majority of teachings in their books are nothing to do with donating money. You said it is kind of evil to get people to donate money? Well according to the Buddha someone is wise if he praises giving and not wise if he doesn't praise giving. So from a buddhist perspective, it is wise not evil. People should always donate when they go to a temple. It's good merit. Hopefully the dhammakaya can step up their donation game and get more donations, that way the temple can grow bigger and more people will come to practice the religion and take rebirth in heaven :clap: :twothumbsup: Anyways, lets simplify your arguments against the dhammakaya so far (they teach what the buddha taught so not ok (donating), their opinion about meditation is different than mine so not ok, they are a cult and they are like scientology so not ok, their interpretation of buddhism is different than mine so not ok) Thank you for bringing these arguments to my attention.

As for the millionaire forever club. I asked my friend at the temple who is a staff there about the millionaire forever club. She said she's never heard of it. I looked it up and found an anti-dhammakaya book talking about some millionaire forever group which gaurentees people rebirth in heaven if they make a monthly donation. She asked why would we would be gaurenteed? and said she doesn't know about it. Then she said they have many clubs, which include releasing fish, offering the food, treatment of monks, etc, and said she could join every club even though she is poor. When you bring up strange accusations against the dhammakaya can you please quote from the actual dhammakaya members and not third party sources unaffiliated with the temple. There are many things that third party sources say about the dhammakaya, such as they put black magic in their food to make people donate, they are trying to take over the world, they sell giant magical hammers to break down the gates of heaven, they worship hitler, etc etc. It's hard to tell when someone says something about the dhammakaya if its legitimate or not.

Soooo, anyways, military junta has issued an illegal article 44 which gives them the right to torture and kill people, the pm of thailand is being accused of treason, the arrest and defrockment of 2,000 monks has been issued, a little girl has been run over and killed by a military vehicle, the former commander of the thai royal police has hinted that there could be ulterior motives for the arrest of Lp Dhammajayo, Lawyer Arkom Rattanapojanaroj has said on television that the Abbot has legally done nothing wrong and should not turn himself in, thousands of dhammakaya members are trying to prevent a military dictatorship from kicking them out so they can be inside of their temple alone, terror can break out at any second and the entire thai government could end up dissolving, but lets just derail this thread into a talk about if the dhammaka asks for donations or not?

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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:33 am

Turmeric wrote:Soooo, anyways, military junta has issued an illegal article 44 which gives them the right to torture and kill people, the pm of thailand is being accused of treason, the arrest and defrockment of 2,000 monks has been issued, a little girl has been run over and killed by a military vehicle, the former commander of the thai royal police has hinted that there could be ulterior motives for the arrest of Lp Dhammajayo, Lawyer Arkom Rattanapojanaroj has said on television that the Abbot has legally done nothing wrong and should not turn himself in, thousands of dhammakaya members are trying to prevent a military dictatorship from kicking them out so they can be inside of their temple alone, terror can break out at any second and the entire thai government could end up dissolving, but lets just derail this thread into a talk about if the dhammaka asks for donations or not?

Okayyy...

Turmeric wrote:if the dhammaka asks for donations or not?

It's a simple topic and quit obvious, no? I think, regarding this issue, the weight of the evidence rests on our side. It would be good if you would provide—unbiased—occurrences, rather than what Dhammakaya monks and officials have told you, which is by definition biased (and words prove nothing). I and multiple other users in this thread have given events of Dhammakaya monks or other Dhammakaya figures convincing or directly asking for donations—usually accompanied with the argument that it will lead to heaven.

But seriously, are you actually trying to convince us that Dhammakaya doesn't and hasn't asked or hinted for donations?

Turmeric wrote:People should always donate when they go to a temple.

Yeah, so... What were we talking about again? Oh, yeah. That Dhammakaya doesn't try to convince people that they should donnate money. This is perplexing.

Turmeric
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:33 am

samseva wrote:
Turmeric wrote:Soooo, anyways, military junta has issued an illegal article 44 which gives them the right to torture and kill people, the pm of thailand is being accused of treason, the arrest and defrockment of 2,000 monks has been issued, a little girl has been run over and killed by a military vehicle, the former commander of the thai royal police has hinted that there could be ulterior motives for the arrest of Lp Dhammajayo, Lawyer Arkom Rattanapojanaroj has said on television that the Abbot has legally done nothing wrong and should not turn himself in, thousands of dhammakaya members are trying to prevent a military dictatorship from kicking them out so they can be inside of their temple alone, terror can break out at any second and the entire thai government could end up dissolving, but lets just derail this thread into a talk about if the dhammaka asks for donations or not?

Okayyy...

Turmeric wrote:if the dhammaka asks for donations or not?

It's a simple topic and quit obvious, no? I think, regarding this issue, the weight of the evidence rests on our side. It would be good if you would provide—unbiased—occurrences, rather than what Dhammakaya monks and officials have told you, which is by definition biased (and words prove nothing). I and multiple other users in this thread have given events of Dhammakaya monks or other Dhammakaya figures convincing or directly asking for donations—usually accompanied with the argument that it will lead to heaven.

But seriously, are you actually trying to convince us that Dhammakaya doesn't and hasn't asked or hinted for donations?

Turmeric wrote:People should always donate when they go to a temple.

Yeah, so... What were we talking about again? Oh, yeah. That Dhammakaya doesn't try to convince people that they should donnate money. This is perplexing.


I didn't say the Dhammakaya doesn't ask for donations. I said the dhammakaya monks I know have never suggested I donate anything. And that the large majority of the information in their books contain nothing about donating. However, I'm sure out of the 500,000 monks in the dhammakaya there are some that ask for donations. Go figure. Out of 500,000 monks there are some who are going to do something that some people disapprove of. Who would have thought. And that something is none other than, gasp! Teaching Exactly what the Buddha taught in the pali canon. So evil. And yeah, when I learn about the temple I tend to want to learn what they teach from actually listening to what they teach. I guess that's just my bias. I suppose I should go to the bangkok post and the nation, which are the news websites the temple haters use, that silence dhammakaya members in the comment section. Definitely not bias. :rofl:

Ok, subject change, for people here that want some insider news, my friend at the temple told me a monk was there named Buddha Issara and he was actually telling the police what to do. He is the teacher of the Prime Minister of Thailand. He told the police to limit the area, cut the power, cut the food, and deal with them. There are pictures being posted by Thai people of him flying in a police helicopter. A lot of the juicy stuff is happening in the thai language and we aren't really getting anything good in english. This monk, Buddha Issara, was the monk that interrogated two police officers after they were kidnapped and blindfolded by his body guards in 2014 during a protest in thailand. They were treated in a hospital for their injuries. Before the coup he was being charged with accessory to murder, blocking voting booths, and laying siege to bangkok by basically shutting it down with his mob that was following him. He still has charges but the police aren't pursuing him. He is close to the military, and like I said he's the teacher of the prime minister. And he is involved with leading the raid against the temple. I'll post a picture of him interrogating the kidnapped police officers below. This is what the Dhammakaya is up against.
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samseva
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby samseva » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:38 am

Turmeric wrote:...

Turmeric, we could debate this for many more pages, but I think neither of us would change his opinion regarding Dhammakaya.

However, I would like to make one last point:

I am sure Dhammakaya has done some good. I think it is also true that Dhammakaya has very bad sides as well. Putting those aside, I think it is important to get a general perspective.

If you look closely at Dhammakaya as a whole, including all of the followers, you can see a common attribute. This common attribute is that, for Dhammakaya, what is venerated and cherished the most are not the Buddha's teachings, but rather the Dhammakaya organization itself. What is the most revered by the monks and the Dhammakaya officials is much more Dhammakaya—and the very devoted followers have and are following suit. So even after putting aside everything that Dhammakaya are accused of having done—and are still doing—it still remains that Dhammakaya is of more importance and is the forefront of the Dhammakaya movement, rather than the Buddha's teachings.

exonesion
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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby exonesion » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:04 am

samseva wrote:(1) Like Ven. Gavesako mentioned, donating is but a small portion of what the Buddha, taught—which Dhammakaya seems to have made central.


1a. Focus on meditation
I disagree that donating is WPD’s focus. Some people may have this impression because most news reports in Thailand only criticize WPD (also biased). And they have been reporting on its donation practices and its alleged prosperity gospel, not its meditation practices. Hence, for people who read only Thai news reports and listen only to vocal critics of WPD, it is natural for them to believe that donation is the focus of WPD.

1b. Meditation and alms-giving
On the contrary, as turmeric and some other members have said, meditation is WPD’s focus. In the context of donation (since samseva and Turmeric are discussing it), WPD teaches that devotees should meditate to purify their mind before alms-giving, and be happy during and after the act. That’s because the state of mind (1) before, (2) during, and (3) after the alms-giving will determine the overall merit accumulated.
If the mind is pure before, during, and after alms-giving, the giver will accumulate the most merit. However, if the devotee gave the alms grudgingly, or regretted it after, much of his merit will be lost.



2a. Practicing generosity may lead to rebirth in higher level of heavens

samseva wrote: Dhammakaya figures … asking for donations—…accompanied with the argument that it will lead to heaven.


WPD teaches practicing generosity is important as its fruits will provide us sufficient wealth for us to support ourselves and Buddhism in our future lifetimes. It also teaches that our afterlife destination is determined by the final nimitta we see before we draw our last breath (mentioned in one of my previous post)
Since the nimitta we will see before we die is partly determined by habitual karma, WPD teaches us to be consistent in our practice of Buddhism. This will therefore increase the chance of attracting the most wholesome karma/nimitta, increasing our chances of having a good afterlife rebirth.
As such, practicing generosity may lead to rebirth in heaven, not will.

2b. Give more and reborn in higher levels of heaven? Partly false
Then on the criticism that by giving more, the higher level of heavens we will be reborn in. This is partly false.

It is true because:
Assuming two givers have the same purity of mind and with other factors being constant, one devotee(A) gives $1,000, another (B) gives $2,000. It is logical for B to earn more merit than A and this may translate to a rebirth in a higher level of heaven for B.
Of course, the exact cause and effect of a certain karmic act is one of the four unthinkables , but generally we know that the more wholesome acts we do, the more merit we will have. And this translates to a higher probability of a better rebirth.

False because:
Again, this falls back to my argument that more merit only means a higher probability of a better rebirth – there’s no guarantee.



3. On devotees not following the temple's advice
samseva wrote:Someone can say anything at all, but if the actions don't follow, the words are meaningless.


Isn't this like:
(1) A teacher being accused of abuse because one of his students bullied a student?
(2) A father being accused of murder because his son killed someone?

The temple has many devotees, and it's impossible for WPD to "control" its devotees and ensure they do not donate all of their wealth away.


On biased sources
samseva wrote: It would be good if you would provide—unbiased—occurrences, rather than what Dhammakaya monks and officials have told you, which is by definition biased (and words prove nothing).


I believe we make an assumption that biased sources are untrue. We have to challenge that.
Instead of rejecting evidence provided by WPD and its devotees just because its from them, I implore readers to read what they have to provide.
And that's because most Thai news media only presents 1 side of the story. WPD provides the other.
Moreover, we should criticize the idea, argument, or process, not the person. :smile:



May everyone be happy
:namaste:
Exonesion

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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Turmeric » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:18 am

I'd like to bring attention to one of the men in this thread who's accusations were used to give the Dhammakaya a bad name. Dr Mano. The man who accused the Dhammakaya of stockpiling jewels and weapons inside of their monastery. One of the most famous Dhammakaya critics. The critic that the temple haters love to quote. The critic that news websites like the bangkok post and the nation quote. The DSI has now searched the temple. No illegal weapons were found and no stockpiled jewels were found. Now we have evidence that one of the most famous Dhammakaya critics in the world has been untruthful and lied to thousands, possibly millions of people. The truth is coming out.

The Abbot has been charged with "forest encroachment" for building a monastery on a land approved by the princess of thailand. The Abbot has been accused of being an evil criminal because 1 person out of one million donators donated money that didn't belong to him to the temple. Now the prime minister is saying that he doesn't believe the golden statue of Luang Pu is real gold, and that he wants to inspect it himself. This temple has been viciously under attack by propaganda, lies, bullying, and military threat for how many years now? When will it stop? When will these people just be left alone?

"6. With Article 44 invoked, for three days from February 16-18 2017, state officials
searched every room on every floor in every structure within the temple grounds, took
over six gates, sealed 15 buildings with tamper indication tape, with some structures
searched as many as three times. DSI officials concluded their search with
documentation indicating that the person of interest and violations were not found. This
meant that their search had concluded, but yet, they asked to conduct another search
with the reason that they've not yet searched every structure.
As a result of the actions performed by state officials listed above, the devotees are displeased
and no longer trust the actions of state officials from this point forward.
As outlined above, Most Ven. Dattajeevo informed the Provincial Ecclesiastical Chief and the
DSI Deputy Chief of the reasons temple devotees are not at ease and lack confidence in state
officials. Therefore, the accusations that Most Ven. Dattajeevo refuses to cooperate are
unfounded. The reasons outlined above, which he had given, are the reasons and decisions
made solely by the devotees.
The truth is, DSI has exercised its powers beyond the scope of the law. During negotiations,
DSI stated their objective [for the search warrant] was to find Venerable Dhammajayo, but
instead, they ordered monks and devotees to vacate the temple. They claimed that devotees
and monks with monastic identification cards are permitted to stay, but this is also untrue, as
their real intention is to seize the temple, not search for Ven. Dhammajayo. DSI already knew
that Ven. Dhammajayo was not inside the temple. Therefore, their claim that his surrender
would bring this situation to an end is also untrue. It was merely an excuse to seize the temple
and to defrock all of the monks. Were they just following an order? DSI claimed that everybody
in Thailand must know. We’d like to ask, know about what? DSI already came and searched
every corner of the temple, but did not find Ven. Dhammajayo. They discovered empty buildings
instead, with nothing of value, contrary to their expectations. This is because Wat Phra
Dhammakaya does not have any hidden treasures, and our monks and novices lead a simple
life, absent of lavishness. They are determined to continue their search until they find
something. And when the temple asserts there are no hidden treasures, they refuse to believe
it. Instead, they accused monks and devotees of wrongdoing. These are the main reasons
devotees no longer have trust and confidence in the actions of state officials"

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spl7li

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Re: Wat Dhammakaya

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:17 am

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