Buddhawajana.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:06 am

Thank you very much ven. bhikkhu Gavesako for sharing your views and opinions on the Buddhawajana movement.

However since you have expressed some fear about the correctnes of a few points in phra ajahn Kukrits teachings, I bring below here 3 videos that hopefully can dispell your fears.


Sadly they are not texted, but I am sure you understand the Thai.


:anjali:


On the link below here Phra Ajahn Kukrit says monks can eat more than one meal a day under certain conditions.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A ... =gAQE-rQ9-


On the link below here Phra Ajahn Kukrit makes it clear where the "150" comes from.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A ... =gAQE-rQ9-


On the link below here is the excuse of phra Prayut regarding his publishing of "only 150", in his dominant book called Buddhadham, and never publishing "more than 150" in his work until now the latest revision in 2014.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A ... =gAQE-rQ9-

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:36 pm

I think Ajahn Kukrit is slowly correcting some of his earlier statements that are recorded in his older CDs and videos. It was about 4-5 years ago when he was focusing on explaining the Vinaya rules to the laypeople when I heard him repeat several times that monks can only eat once a day, otherwise they break their Sila. When I went to talk to him, I asked him what he thought about this Sutta passage:
Bhikkhus, I eat at a single session. By so doing, I am free from illness and affliction, and I enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding. Come, bhikkhus, eat at a single session. By so doing, you too will be free from illness and affliction, and you will enjoy lightness, strength, and a comfortable abiding.”

When this was said, the venerable Bhaddāli told the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, I am not willing to eat at a single session; for if I were to do so, I might have worry and anxiety about it.”

“Then, Bhaddāli, eat one part there where you are invited and bring away one part to eat. By eating in that way, you will maintain yourself.”

“Venerable sir, I am not willing to eat in that way either; for if I were to do so, I might also have worry and anxiety about it.”

majjhima nikāya 65
Bhaddāli Sutta
http://suttacentral.net/en/mn65
Ajahn Kukrit replied that although the Buddha allowed Ven. Bhaddali to eat at more than one session, this only applied to him as an individual bhikkhu and not to other bhikkhus (which would be rather unusual because normally the Buddha made an allowance which applied generally to all monks).

Then there was another thing that Ajahn Kukrit was saying about the nature of the once-returner (Sakadagami): apparently they are only born once in the Deva world and not in the human world as usually assumed. Why? While looking at the Pali text which says "sakideva imam lokam agantva" he saw the word "deva" and came to this conclusion. In fact, "sakideva" means "only once" (saki-d-eva) and has nothing to do with Devas at all:
sakidPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sakid,& Sakiṁ (adv.) [fr.sa°=saṁ] once.(1) sakiṁ: D.II,188; J.I,397; DhA.III,116 (sakiṁvijātā itthi= primipara); once more:Miln.238; once for all:Th.2,466; DhA.II,44; ThA.284.- (2) sakid (in composition; see also sakad-āgāmin):in sakid eva once only A.II,238; IV,380; Pug.16; PvA.243; at once Vin.I,31.(Page 660)
Ajahn Kukrit has been making headlines with his progressive approach to technology enabling many people to search through all the Suttas quickly:

Pathum Thani temple uses smartphone technology to help Buddhists get in touch with core teachings.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/tel ... the-source

E-Tipitaka is the first Thai Tipitaka developed on the mobile phones.
- Search and compare the Buddha's speeches (Buddhavacana) in the Thai Tipitaka

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... taka&hl=en

Since this application came out, Ajahn Kukrit's disciples have become very active on the internet engaging in heated discussions about what the Buddha did and did not teach. They have been encouraged to do so by Ajahn Kukrit who claimed that anyone can now simply search the Thai translation of the Tipitaka and find out if a particular term is there or not. This of course doesn't take into account the fact that translations are not standardized and one Pali word might be translated into Thai in many different ways. I already saw some posts saying that with the new E-Tipitaka on mobile, they will be like Buddha's soldiers -- probably meaning that they will listen to different teachers, search their words on the mobile application, and if they don't find them there, they will shout: "This is not the Buddha's word!" The problem is that they might not be so good at searching or know how to spell the word (they can be spelled in several ways in Thai script), so they might not find it even if it's really there... In any case, a much more careful study of the Pali texts is necessary before making such sweeping statements or rejections.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:35 am

Respected bhikkhu Gavesako - I just as you, see the benefit and necessity of being critical in this world, and even more so when we talk about spiritual teachers, and their teachings.

Its a quality not often to be found between spiritual seekers.

So my respect to you, for that.

Sadly most seekers seems to accept whatever the teacher they have attached themselves emotionally to, have to say.

And this is one of the things that I appreciate about Buddhawajana - That here the only real teacher is the historical Buddhas words, in the Suttas.

No more Guru worship, please.

After having seen a long line of failed buddhist teachers, I have completely lost my taste for teachers.

Some would say that in Buddhawajana it is Ajahn Kukrit who is the new "superstar teacher", and right now it may seem as they are right.

But as I see it, the achievement of the objective in Buddhawajana, that the greatest possible number of serious buddhist is studying Buddha's words in the suttas, in a serious way , and accept it as the highest authority – at the same time would mean that Ajahn Kukrit has superseded himself.

Therefore he should be the last "superstar teacher" in Buddhawajana.

Everyone who has interest in the pure Buddhawajana should speak for a future big group of teachers in Buddhawajana, in order to avoid the tendency of developing "superstar teachers".

As you may understand from this I do not speculate in seing Ajahn Kukrit as an Arahant, but as a very grounded, clearheaded strong and practical monk, who have seen the right way to go and have the power to do it, better than anyone I ever seen before.

It is therefore useless mosquito f*** to me, to go on discussing if he at one time in the past maybe have had this or that opinion about a minor rule, as long as he follow the suttas now.

If we only can be guided by one who in the past have been absolutely perfect in every word, we may have to wait a long time for guidence.

A big heart and a spirit of goodwill, has its place in buddhism.

I feel there is such a precence of truth in Buddhawajana aproach, that by the power of this truth it can not be stopped, and will be a shining light in this world for a long time to come.

Anumodana. :anjali:

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6500
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by Mkoll » Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:51 pm

jan fessel wrote:Sadly most seekers seems to accept whatever the teacher they have attached themselves emotionally to, have to say.
Maybe.
jan fessel wrote:Therefore he should be the last "superstar teacher" in Buddhawajana.
Maybe not.

:mrgreen:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16972
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:22 am

jan fessel wrote: Sadly most seekers seems to accept whatever the teacher they have attached themselves emotionally to, have to say.
The teachers I'm most attached to are the (unknown) ones that I know personally and so have a chance to get to know. They have been a much more more help to me than any famous monk. Of course, I'm not saying that being famous would rule out them being helpful, it's just that I don't have easy access to any famous monks...
jan fessel wrote: And this is one of the things that I appreciate about Buddhawajana - That here the only real teacher is the historical Buddhas words, in the Suttas.
Surely all we ever have at this point is your, or someone else's, interpretation of the suttas?

Besides, I've read a lot of material from many teachers who make exactly the same claim: to just teach from the suttas.

Of course, they have a variety of interpretations...

There are at least two ways of dealing with that. Either attach to one particular interpretation, or accept that there are variety of ways of interpreting the Suttas... One or other may be more useful for a particular practitioner...

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1748
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by gavesako » Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:44 pm

You are right about the "superstar teachers" in Buddhism and that more attention should be paid to the words of the Buddha himself. Ajahn Kukrit's mother was a disciple of Ajahn Chah in Bangkok, and so he ordained with Ajahn Dtun at Wat Boonyawad in Chonburi. But only after two or three years he left and lived with some other monks at the place in Pathum Thani, near Bangkok, which then became Wat Nah Pah Pong. He slowly started turning to the texts rather than listening to living teachers, and so he built himself up into a teacher promoting the Buddhavacana. He was still doing this under the umbrella of the Ajahn Chah group and sometimes invited the Western monks to stay at his place. It seemed that his approach was quite similar to the Western interest in early Buddhist teachings. Then the issue with 150 Patimokkha rules came up and he did not want to follow the standards of Wat Nong Pah Pong so he was cut off as a branch monastery a few years ago.

Now it seems that Ajahn Kukrit is aiming at creating a mass Buddhavacana movement not only in Thailand but around the world as well: http://buddha-net.com/

Such a movement necessarily needs to have a charismatic leader or "superstar teacher" so he has become one and continues to appear on Thai TV and holds large gatherings at which he explains his ideas. His following mainly consists of educated middle-class Thais who don't have a problem with studying Thai Sutta translations and even memorizing them and asking questions. This is quite a new trend in Thai Buddhism but it seems to be gathering momentum. He also has some influential supporters high up in Thai society, including the Prime Minister's Office which printed many of his "Buddhawajana" books for distribution. Now they even get schools to join in and have whole classes memorize some Suttas and recite them in the morning after saluting the Thai flag:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfUr12lDXGI

He is competing here with the Dhammakaya movement, which is based also in Pathum Thani not far from Wat Nah Pah Pong. The Buddhavacana movement is clearly the more preferable one, although Dhammakaya has long been trying to put their own people in Buddhist institutions and the education ministry so that lots of children can be sent to Dhammakaya training camps. Now it remains to be seen who will win this battle for the soul of Buddhism in Thailand. It might be up to the current military government who have already announced a plan to reform the Buddhist system.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:40 am

You are generally very well informed about this subject I see ven. bhikkhu Gavesako.

You wrote :
"Such a movement necessarily needs to have a charismatic leader or "superstar teacher""
I agree that there seems to be a public demand and need for Gurus to put on a pedestal, but I fear that continuing this way in the long run will be the death of this in my eyes, in many ways - very positive movement Buddhawajana.

I believe the Buddha said there should be no leader of the sangha after his death, and yet it seems as every buddhist organisation ends up with perceived holy men, motivated by plain desire, as leaders - and a hierarchy below involved in power struggles and money making foreign to the teachings of the Buddha.

There is a story of how the Devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man pick something up from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket.

The friend said to the devil, "What did that man pick up?" "He picked up a piece of Truth," said the Devil.

"That is a very bad business for you, then," said his friend. "Oh, not at all," the Devil replied with a big smile, "I am going to let him organize it."’

So it might be that when men are as most today, slaves of base desires - then organized religion may indeed become the Devils playground.

Things like this makes me prefer to continue living a solitary spiritual life, as a layman.

:anjali:
Last edited by jan fessel on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:53 am

Mikenz66 wrote :
Surely all we ever have at this point is your, or someone else's, interpretation of the suttas?
I think you are right, but Buddhawajana seems to specialize in a very powerful way to share a lot of short and very simple qoutes, with translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi and so far I feel safe by that.

:anjali:
Last edited by jan fessel on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:59 am

Mkoll wrote :
"Maybe, maybe not "
In the spirit of father Christmas I feel like sharing theese words with you dear Mkoll.... :tongue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYJhWIwGUw

:anjali:

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:11 pm

Respected bhikkhu Gavesako....

Buddhawajana belives that the sprinkling of "holy vater" by monks is wrong practice.

I must admit its hard for me to see its against the dhamma.

Do you have any view on that ?

:anjali:

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6500
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by Mkoll » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:15 pm

jan fessel wrote:Mkoll wrote :
"Maybe, maybe not "
In the spirit of father Christmas I feel like sharing theese words with you dear Mkoll.... :tongue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYJhWIwGUw

:anjali:
:guns:

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

chownah
Posts: 8170
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by chownah » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:40 am

Mkoll,
your post doesn't work for me.....is it a picture or a video? Here it is just blank.
chownah

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6500
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by Mkoll » Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:54 am

chownah wrote:Mkoll,
your post doesn't work for me.....is it a picture or a video? Here it is just blank.
chownah
Hmm that's odd because the video works for me. Maybe Youtube is acting up? If you try refreshing the page it might work. Anyway, here's the direct URL that you can copy-paste into your address bar. If that doesn't work then I'm really stumped. :shrug:

Code: Select all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ARFCQlb3M
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

jan fessel
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:24 am

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by jan fessel » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:50 pm

To my dear friend Mkoll.

I surrender. :anjali:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJgF_bYo0HI

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6500
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Buddhawajana.

Post by Mkoll » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:36 pm

:group:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: buddho99, DooDoot, James N. Dawson, Kim OHara, robertk, SilaSamadhi and 128 guests