This idea that the end result is inevitable is just like the saying "all roads lead to Rome," on a limited understanding you should be able to take any road and reach Rome, but in reality you could still be 10,000 miles away. this sort of message should always be joined with following the right roads of practice.
Of course Cittasanto, its just that following the right road of practic is not easy to be seen as long one has not reached the road. So faith alone is no secure sollution. Better is just to look at the next step (right intention? right action?) and not so much what's happen around and how this picture might appear (oh I am on the road, or oh I am maybe on the wronr road). Of coure a good view around could give the first intention that it would be good not to rest on this situatation as it is somehow not really the best and secure.
but there is also the issue of the right/perfect conditions, and the need to create them externally which is just as dangerous. Both of these can lead to inaction or inappropriate/dissident action.
I don't thinks so, the right conditions come by right actions. We should not take samples or perceptions of what is a good condition
as our reference, but simply continue, maintain, develope the wholesome, so even in a bad condition
, it would lead to better conditions.
Focusing on actions or intentions can never lead to inaction, while not honore or value ones conditions or thinking that one is already in a good condition
for shure will cause a kind of feeling of security and that will cause a lose or not attaining of better conditions.
How do you suppose gratitude be expressed in the situation here on this forum?
A very good place to train gratitude. It needs somehow to see the generosity of others first. To see this generosity of others one needs to try to do it by one self, only then one is able to understand the support of others and their "sacrify". It's a good place to train Dana, to give without the expectation (that other understand, honor, take it to heart, tolerate...)
And it's also a good place to learn how hard it actually can be to give freely without an expectation. So in somehow, we need to learn to receive first. One might think receiving is easy, no it isn't. One how is not able to receive freely given, is not able to give freely. His judgements are still much belove gratidute, generosity and what is meant by Dana.
It's a place of mudita, a place of pattidana, a place of pattanumodana, a place of dhammassavana, a place of dhammadesana not to forget also a place for apacayana and even for the simple wholesomedeeds like veyyavacca it is a perfect place. And while joining this meritious deeds, is always a place for Bhavana (to look on his own intentions and to uproot silly thoughts and attachemts caused by personality), at least even the highest meritious deed, is possible ditthijukamma. And all this actions will lead not only our self but also those who are able to receive to a better condition
and maybe one day it will be even a place where we simply just meet people with right view, keep the danger of association amoung people with wrong view limited. This is one way how we can change our conditions with our actions, but we can also abstain from such actions if they are falling just on soil which has no nutrient content to let the seeds grow.
The effort is how ever founded in learned gratitude and this needs the acceptence that there are gift, there are results and there is no stability (look at right view)
would this include paying attention to what is said; refraining from fallacy arguments, assuming another's agrument... or something else? and how would having gratitude and faith change anything if they are not acted upon? but how do you relate gratitude with "mundane" right view; particularly "there is what is given"?
Paying attention is very connected with concentration, something that is the last chain of good action in the wheel of the eightfold path. Something we can train all the time. Putting aside mental states of affection, aversion on clincing to views and start to read it one more time. To expect concentration from others will suddenly burn our seeds of Dana, so never expect anything when you share it.
"refraining from fallacy arguments" one is not able to refrain from fallacy arguments, if the mind is deluded or clincs to wrong views its mostly just the appearance of feelings of desire or aversion which could help in such a case. If one knows that it is fallacy, he would not argu. So its also a place to cultivate compassion. Compassion needs the understanding then one self is even in the same situation like all others. Without this understanding our compassion is nothing but simply high-handedness. We are all here to get right of moha, we would be silly if we think that we are free of it yet.
"assuming another's agrument" there is no such thing as assuming if the mind is free from the evil roots, so assuming will be always in the sphere of the actor not the receiver. But if the receiver assums that somebody else assumes, he would in the best case fight fire with fire.
If there is a situation which seems to be not takeable not given freely, no need to take it. As long as you do not take it, it'S simply not yours. So in simply words, do not take given things personaly (like Dana), some are useable, some are not worthy to take... but non of this "gifts" is a personal gift (the german word "Gift" means poison, funny, isn't it). A gift (something that is given) will be poison if you take it person, in what way ever. If you take any kind of gift even if it is poison, and there is no more attachment or no orld wound (that is a very importand point) this poison can not penetrate. So when a gift hurts, than you have taken it from a personal position. All gifts are here to take away the personal believe. So when ever it hurts, its a good sign that one has taken it wrong.
"and how would having gratitude and faith change anything if they are not acted upon?" Ohh, even a bad sample is useful for the wise like the best sample is useless for the fool. I would not worry to much about that. If gratitude is not gratitude, how can it help? If faith is just blind faith, how could it help? All in all for the one who is in such a condition
, a bad condition
. We might even not be able to help him out, but we can also learn and remember what the wise meant by their saying.
"but how do you relate gratitude with "mundane" right view; particularly "there is what is given" " Starter opened a good topic The place of dana in the path & its development
which might clear many things in this regard.
Traditional the teachings of gratitude is payed much effort, time and resources, as if there is no understanding of it or taken wrongly, there is no right view even of the smalles amount but just any other development of different personal views amoung the eight path. So gratitude and right view are two things which are so strong connected, that it is even for "new" comer the most importand topic to understand. Also of foxes which stuck on the path will find the solution based of gratitude which starts mostly with the parents and the relation to them.
A person of gratitude learned generosity will not easy miss the path and that is even no question of religion. But simply right view.
Very useful generally: Lessons of gratitude
also in regard of whom to pay gratitude.
Regarding the assuming and take it personal problem my some of my experiances amoung the boards of fine material beings be helpful (Googlyana
. Such a training is very helpful and dedicated in honor to all those who helped me to understand this realm better.
How ever, if you train it for a long while you will easily understand The Bull Elephant
and develope gratitude for his returns.
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