Perception - The Five Aggregates

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Nori
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Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by Nori » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:25 am

Often, I had difficulty in conceiving 'Perception' - one of the Five Aggregates. I thought this article below did a good job of describing it:

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma2/5agg.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personal comment: I think ultimately, to gain a deep understanding, one must eventually give up the distinctions of the aggregates, since (at the least) feeling, perception, and volition (intention/mental formation) are interrelated.

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effort
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by effort » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:34 am

by what is in the article i assume that i'm not able to point the consciousness aggregate because it is working in the very behind, but i always labeled the ( feeling or knowing of BEING ) as consciousness aggregates, so what is the best word for KNOWING OF BEING?

i know it is not related but i want to add that all we do, all of our effort is for this KNOWING OF BEING feeling.

Gena1480
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by Gena1480 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:29 pm

perception
let take for example
perception of form(color/shape)
if you go to a movie for example
you have three things happening
you have projector,you have projector projecting the image, and you have an image
that image is form
the invisible projecting between projector and screen, where people sit
is like perception
metta

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ground
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by ground » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:39 pm

effort wrote:i assume that i'm not able to point the consciousness aggregate because it is working in the very behind,
Consciousness and name-and-form cannot be experientially separated. Consciousness manifests as name-and-form and name-and-form manifest as consciousness. See SN 12.67
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that name-&-form is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."
...
"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards
Last edited by ground on Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by santa100 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:42 pm

If you're more of a visual person, you might find the khandhas schematic from this link useful..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_aggregates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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kirk5a
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by kirk5a » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:58 pm

effort wrote:by what is in the article i assume that i'm not able to point the consciousness aggregate because it is working in the very behind, but i always labeled the ( feeling or knowing of BEING ) as consciousness aggregates, so what is the best word for KNOWING OF BEING?

i know it is not related but i want to add that all we do, all of our effort is for this KNOWING OF BEING feeling.
That's a very interesting question. But since you describe it as "feeling" I wonder what that means. Could it perhaps be a more subtle feeling tied to the body? If so, then why would all our effort be for the knowing of that feeling? My understanding so far is that effort is for the sake of ending clinging.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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ground
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by ground » Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:11 pm

effort wrote:... so what is the best word for KNOWING OF BEING?

i know it is not related but i want to add that all we do, all of our effort is for this KNOWING OF BEING feeling.
Before stream entry it is perceiving the aggregates as "I", "mine" or "self" ("self-identity views"). After stream entry it is called "conceit", which is not directly related to aggregates and is abandoned when becoming arhat.
"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

kind regards

pegembara
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by pegembara » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:27 pm

"perception", "conception", "cognition", or "discrimination" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā, Tib. 'du-shes):
registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree)

Perception is a function of the brain. Eg without perception, the eyes just see but doesn't recognize the object.

Visual agnosia is the inability of the brain to make sense of or make use of some part of otherwise normal visual stimulus and is typified by the inability to recognize familiar objects or faces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_agnosia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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effort
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by effort » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:20 pm

kirk5a wrote:
effort wrote:by what is in the article i assume that i'm not able to point the consciousness aggregate because it is working in the very behind, but i always labeled the ( feeling or knowing of BEING ) as consciousness aggregates, so what is the best word for KNOWING OF BEING?

i know it is not related but i want to add that all we do, all of our effort is for this KNOWING OF BEING feeling.
That's a very interesting question. But since you describe it as "feeling" I wonder what that means. Could it perhaps be a more subtle feeling tied to the body? If so, then why would all our effort be for the knowing of that feeling? My understanding so far is that effort is for the sake of ending clinging.

i dont see it as bodily feeling, right now as you read this email just notice yourself the KNOWING OF BEING as mind state ( i'm not using feeling here to not take it as bodily feeling ). i think the whole thing is about this state, to flourish it, to direct it , know it,... but maybe this is just some sort of subtle clinging to existence, then i dont even dare to think to end this clinging.

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kirk5a
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by kirk5a » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:48 pm

effort wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
effort wrote:by what is in the article i assume that i'm not able to point the consciousness aggregate because it is working in the very behind, but i always labeled the ( feeling or knowing of BEING ) as consciousness aggregates, so what is the best word for KNOWING OF BEING?

i know it is not related but i want to add that all we do, all of our effort is for this KNOWING OF BEING feeling.
That's a very interesting question. But since you describe it as "feeling" I wonder what that means. Could it perhaps be a more subtle feeling tied to the body? If so, then why would all our effort be for the knowing of that feeling? My understanding so far is that effort is for the sake of ending clinging.

i dont see it as bodily feeling, right now as you read this email just notice yourself the KNOWING OF BEING as mind state ( i'm not using feeling here to not take it as bodily feeling ). i think the whole thing is about this state, to flourish it, to direct it , know it,... but maybe this is just some sort of subtle clinging to existence, then i dont even dare to think to end this clinging.
Hmm yes I have a sense of what you are talking about. In traditional terms, to get back to your original question, I wonder if that is what in the suttas is called "consciousness property" ... described in this sutta as "pure and bright." Or perhaps "equanimity." I wish there was more elaboration here, because the "consciousness property" is described in terms of performing the function of knowing feeling, rather than described as something in its own right.
"'A person has six properties.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? These are the six properties: the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, the wind property, the space property, the consciousness property.
...
"There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.'
...
"There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable, & luminous. Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith's apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a pair of tongs, place it in the crucible: He would blow on it time & again, sprinkle water on it time & again, examine it time & again, so that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined, flawless, free from dross, pliant, malleable, & luminous.
But the key thing there is the use of these "properties" for the sake of insight into the following:
"One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.' One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Kenshou
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by Kenshou » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:08 pm

effort wrote: as you read this email just notice yourself the KNOWING OF BEING as mind state ( i'm not using feeling here to not take it as bodily feeling ). i think the whole thing is about this state, to flourish it, to direct it , know it,... but maybe this is just some sort of subtle clinging to existence, then i dont even dare to think to end this clinging.
This "knowing of being" is most likely just sakkaya-ditthi, and on a deeper level, the conceit "I am", the first and eighth of the ten fetters respectively. These are not things to be developed but to be removed through proper training. The removal of the "am" can seem like a scary thing but the key is to become aware of the drawbacks of it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Akuma
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by Akuma » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:40 am

Kenshou wrote:
effort wrote: as you read this email just notice yourself the KNOWING OF BEING as mind state ( i'm not using feeling here to not take it as bodily feeling ). i think the whole thing is about this state, to flourish it, to direct it , know it,... but maybe this is just some sort of subtle clinging to existence, then i dont even dare to think to end this clinging.
This "knowing of being" is most likely just sakkaya-ditthi, and on a deeper level, the conceit "I am", the first and eighth of the ten fetters respectively. These are not things to be developed but to be removed through proper training. The removal of the "am" can seem like a scary thing but the key is to become aware of the drawbacks of it. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I understood him saying that he wonders where this peculiar self-consciousness comes from we all share.
Zhihua Yao addresses that in his book about the Buddhist theory of self-cognition, since it deals with the different ideas Buddhism brought forth considering the way cognition of cognition might or might not be possible ->

While you are happy, you know that you are happy; while you are sad,
you know that you are sad; while you are reading this book, you know that
you are reading it. These are the most common experiences that we have
in everyday life. It is called self-consciousness, or simply consciousness, and
is often considered a specific feature that distinguishes human beings from
other animals. It is one of the central issues of modern Western philo-
sophy and has become a hot topic in the rapidly growing field of cognitive
science.
Within the Buddhist doctrinal system, whether we translate the Sanskrit
word svasamvedana or svasamvitti as "self-cognition", "self-awareness" or
"reflexive awareness", it signifies a form of self-consciousness.

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effort
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by effort » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:08 am

thanks for the answers, it is hard for me to choose what i described is this pali word or the other but it gives me more views, i started this question many times and i could not resist to not ask about that. the only thing that is changing is, before it was really frustrating as i felt that i have a good tool ( this feeling ) that i didn't know how to use it, now i just note it, and try to not react to it.

it is always my concern that when i get older i will have the same feeling of KNOWING OF BEING which i had for long time and nothing change about that feeling.

this must be my most unknown part of my ego!! :spy: :jumping:

Gena1480
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by Gena1480 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:29 am

effort
i was like you before
and no matter how many explanation
i read i could not understand, what was perception
as i do understand now
i will try my best to describe it
do you understand what is the word seeing means
you have physical eyes and when you turn your eyes you look/see
perception is same thing only mental
it is mental looking/mental/visual seeing, for example seeing a mirage, there is a seeing of the mirage,mental seeing
the Buddha recollected his lives using perception
its not easy to discover perception
mental effort
metta

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ground
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Re: Perception - The Five Aggregates

Post by ground » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:54 am

effort wrote:it is always my concern that when i get older i will have the same feeling of KNOWING OF BEING which i had for long time and nothing change about that feeling.

this must be my most unknown part of my ego!! :spy: :jumping:
"Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated.

"Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated.

"In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards

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