Conditioning.

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PeterB
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Conditioning.

Post by PeterB » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:59 pm

Psychological and social conditioning. How do you see this in terms of Dhamma ?
Or more to the point perhaps, how do you see its undoing ?

alfa
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by alfa » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:31 pm

Glad you raised this topic, it's very important because I too find it hard to handle this. Conditioning is so deep.

We're conditioned to act in a certain manner. I believe we can break this by surprising ourselves.

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Fede
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Fede » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:55 pm

we can examine our thinking.
we can scrutinise our conditioned approach and compare it to the teachings of the eightfold Path.
we can appraise whether the conditioning to which we have been subjected, is skilful or unskilful.
We can then act accordingly to either modify, cease, or augment our conditioning.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Viscid
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Viscid » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:03 pm

PeterB wrote:Or more to the point perhaps, how do you see its undoing ?
Undoing? As in unconditioning? No such thing. You can recondition: condition yourself to act wholesomely rather than unwholesomely, but that's still conditioning.

Brainwash yourself into being good.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

Jhana4
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Jhana4 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:13 pm

I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I think behaviorists have a concept called "cessation" which I think means that if you remove the reenforcement following an event ( a reward or a punishment ) the conditioning will eventually wear off.

Modern shrinks that can be expedited in people if they change their behavior patterns and honestly change the way they think about a situation ( i.e. not brainwashing ).

Easier said than done!
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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ground
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by ground » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:23 pm

Viscid wrote:Undoing? As in unconditioning? No such thing.
I would want to opt for mindfulness.

Kind regards

PeterB
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by PeterB » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:50 pm

Fede wrote:we can examine our thinking.
we can scrutinise our conditioned approach and compare it to the teachings of the eightfold Path.
we can appraise whether the conditioning to which we have been subjected, is skilful or unskilful.
We can then act accordingly to either modify, cease, or augment our conditioning.
:anjali:

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Ben
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Ben » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:26 pm

PeterB wrote:Psychological and social conditioning. How do you see this in terms of Dhamma ?
Sankhara
PeterB wrote:Or more to the point perhaps, how do you see its undoing ?
Vipassana

kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Viscid
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Viscid » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:49 pm

Jhana4 wrote:I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV, but I think behaviorists have a concept called "cessation" which I think means that if you remove the reenforcement following an event ( a reward or a punishment ) the conditioning will eventually wear off.

Modern shrinks that can be expedited in people if they change their behavior patterns and honestly change the way they think about a situation ( i.e. not brainwashing ).

Easier said than done!
I suppose I wasn't thinking along the lines of 'classical' conditioning. If we're just talking about stopping a pattern of behaviour, then yeah, there is cessation to that behaviour. However valuing the cessation of that behaviour is a conditioning, and the behaviour following the cessation of that behaviour is conditioned.

As long as we act, there are conditions for those actions. We will always (unless we're fully enlightened I think?) be subject to 'social and psychological conditioning.'
I would want to opt for mindfulness.

Kind regards
Gotta condition yourself to be mindful.
Last edited by Viscid on Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Fede
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Fede » Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:50 pm

One Ben trumps an Alex, any day! :thumbsup:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Goofaholix
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:00 pm

PeterB wrote:Or more to the point perhaps, how do you see its undoing ?
By realising the Unconditioned.

Short of that all we can do is try to recondition the conditioning, which is good and useful, but just another kind of conditioning.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Goedert
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Goedert » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:33 am

PeterB wrote:Psychological and social conditioning. How do you see this in terms of Dhamma ?
Or more to the point perhaps, how do you see its undoing ?
I see it as Mamo, Mara, The Evil One.

Escape his helm.

Sylvester
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by Sylvester » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:46 am

For this simpleton, psychological conditioning is achieved via manasikara (attention) and sociological conditioning via parato ghoso (the voice of another).

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It appears the Commentaries believe that buddhas are exempt from the 2nd condition...

I think both conditions go hand in hand and cannot be divorced. Of course, certain other conditions would need to be present, eg pliability or malleability of the mind in order for the social conditioning to resonate.
But if a tamable person doesn't submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline... AN 4.111

rowyourboat
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:44 pm

Everything we know is conditioned (ie arises due to a previously existing condition).
Wholesome acts are conditioned
Mindfulness in conditioned
Consciousness is conditioned
Insight is conditioned

The only unconditoned (not)'thing' is nibbana.

To have an (non)experience of that all conditioned phenomena have to cease- otherwise it would not be named 'asankhatha' or unconditioned.

Nibbana does not arise, caused by something. It is what is left behind (note the reification) when conditioned things cease (nirodha) or more acurately do not arise. It is an 'uncovering' of sorts- like a carpet being lifted away to reveal a large black hole in the ground.

Nibbana is not the result of the noble eightfold path, strictly speaking. The result of the N8FP is the dissolution of samsara, ie the ' going out of the flame' of conditioned things.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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kirk5a
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Re: Conditioning.

Post by kirk5a » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:50 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Nibbana does not arise, caused by something. It is what is left behind (note the reification) when conditioned things cease (nirodha) or more acurately do not arise. It is an 'uncovering' of sorts- like a carpet being lifted away to reveal a large black hole in the ground.
A black hole! That's a new one. So much for the "luminous mind".

"The other extreme is thinking that nibbāna is some kind of annihilation or black hole."
~Bhikkhu Pesala
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Wor ... rkers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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