Self-Defence

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mr Man
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Mr Man »

Disciple wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:41 pm
How ethical would it be for a Buddhist layperson to carry a knife or gun for self-defense? I'm wondering because not everyone has the privilege of living in a safe environment.
Consider these points-
Killing is unethical.
All environments are unsafe.
Are there examples supporting carrying weapons for self defence in the sutta?
It many countries such actions would be illegal.

Disciple
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Disciple »

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:52 am
Disciple wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:41 pm
How ethical would it be for a Buddhist layperson to carry a knife or gun for self-defense? I'm wondering because not everyone has the privilege of living in a safe environment.
Consider these points-
Killing is unethical.
All environments are unsafe.
Are there examples supporting carrying weapons for self defence in the sutta?
It many countries such actions would be illegal.
Carrying weapons doesn't always have to involve killing. You can shoot someone in the leg for example.
Yes, but I would more likely die quicker living in a gang/drug infested area like Compton than Beverly Hills.
Not sure.
True.

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Mr Man
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Mr Man »

Better than carrying a weapon develop barami.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Pseudobabble »

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:06 pm
Better than carrying a weapon develop barami.
Let's see you carry that attitude off in Sierra Leone.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by binocular »

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:06 pm
Better than carrying a weapon develop barami.
Let's see you carry that attitude off in Sierra Leone.
How many people who are born and raised in Sierra Leone have an interest in Buddhism?
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Pseudobabble »

binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:45 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:06 pm
Better than carrying a weapon develop barami.
Let's see you carry that attitude off in Sierra Leone.
How many people who are born and raised in Sierra Leone have an interest in Buddhism?
The point is that its easy to say such things, but a lot less easy to act accordingly when the situation actually arises.

Substitute any actually risky situation for Sierra Leone.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Mr Man
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Mr Man »

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:45 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:18 am
Let's see you carry that attitude off in Sierra Leone.
How many people who are born and raised in Sierra Leone have an interest in Buddhism?
The point is that its easy to say such things, but a lot less easy to act accordingly when the situation actually arises.

Substitute any actually risky situation for Sierra Leone.
We have a choice follow Buddhist teachings or do otherwise.

binocular
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by binocular »

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:45 am
How many people who are born and raised in Sierra Leone have an interest in Buddhism?
The point is that its easy to say such things, but a lot less easy to act accordingly when the situation actually arises.
Substitute any actually risky situation for Sierra Leone.
My point is that there seems to be a pattern:
People who have an interest in (Theravada) Buddhism aren't born into particularly physically dangerous situations (such as being born into Sierra Leone).
On the other hand, people who are born into particularly physically dangerous situations don't have much interest in (Theravada) Buddhism (so they don't concern themselves with issues of morality in self-defense).

I don't know in how far this pattern holds true. It certainly holds that not just anything happens or can happen to just anyone just anywhere.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

binocular
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by binocular »

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
The point is that its easy to say such things, but a lot less easy to act accordingly when the situation actually arises.
In real-life situations, there seems to often be much more choice than these abstract thought experiments can predict.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Pseudobabble »

binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:25 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:25 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:45 am
How many people who are born and raised in Sierra Leone have an interest in Buddhism?
The point is that its easy to say such things, but a lot less easy to act accordingly when the situation actually arises.
Substitute any actually risky situation for Sierra Leone.
My point is that there seems to be a pattern:
People who have an interest in (Theravada) Buddhism aren't born into particularly physically dangerous situations (such as being born into Sierra Leone).
On the other hand, people who are born into particularly physically dangerous situations don't have much interest in (Theravada) Buddhism (so they don't concern themselves with issues of morality in self-defense).

I don't know in how far this pattern holds true. It certainly holds that not just anything happens or can happen to just anyone just anywhere.
Really? Have you ever heard of the Tamil Tigers?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Self-Defence

Post by binocular »

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:23 pm
Really? Have you ever heard of the Tamil Tigers?
Sure, I was thinking of those, too, along with the situation in Burma, etc., that's why I'm not sure in how far the pattern holds.

But leaving aside traditionally Buddhist countries -- Do you know (of) any Theravada Buddhists from Sierra Leone, Sudan, South Africa, and other high-conflict countries?
In some very general terms, it seems that people from high-conflict situations prefer Mahayana/Vajrayana to Theravada.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by salayatananirodha »

in response to the 'dangerous environment' musings https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Self-Defence

Post by Ceisiwr »

Of course you can engage in self defence if you want to. The Buddha doesn’t tell us what to do. He only tells us what the consequences are. As for self defence, I could see a case being made for it being mixed kamma.

Let’s not forget that even monks and nuns can engage in self defence.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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