Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?

[PeterB]

Personally I read his profile.

[Alex123]

People who responded to my thread might correctly say what you wrote above is only your view and not a reflection of the intentions of the authors of the Pali Canon. That being said, quotes in the past, similar to yours, in the Canon have made the suttas only philosophically interesting to me, not inspirational. Absolutely no offense meant. My apologies for making your post an example of what I have encountered elsewhere.

[Magandiya offers his daughter to the Buddha, who replies:]
On seeing [the daughters of Mara] — Discontent, Craving, & Passion — there wasn't even the desire for sex. So what would I want with this, filled with urine & excrement? I wouldn't want to touch it even with my foot.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Full of the many clans of impurities, the great manufacturer of excrement, like a stagnant pool, a great tumor, great wound, full of blood & lymph, immersed in a cesspool, trickling liquids, the body is oozing foulness — always. Bound together with sixty sinews, plastered with a stucco of muscle, wrapped in a jacket of skin this foul body is of no worth at all. Linked together with a chain of bones, stitched together with tendon-threads, it produces its various postures, from being hitched up together. Headed surely to death, in the presence of the King of Mortality, the man who learns to discard it right here, goes wherever he wants.” – Thag 10.5
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Subha Jivakambavanika, Awakened Nun, speaking to a lay person who wanted her:
"What do you assume of any essence, here in this cemetery grower, filled with corpses, this body destined to break up? What do you see when you look at me, you who are out of your mind?" For there is nothing anywhere at all in the world with its devas, that would be an object of passion for me. I don't even know what that passion would be, for it's been killed, root & all, by the path. Like embers from a pit — scattered, like a bowl of poison — evaporated, I don't even see what that passion would be, for it's been killed, root & all, by the path. I delight, having gone to an empty dwelling. For I have seen well-painted puppets, hitched up with sticks & strings, made to dance in various ways. When the sticks & strings are removed, thrown away, scattered, shredded, smashed into pieces, not to be found, in what will the mind there make its home? This body of mine, which is just like that, when devoid of dhammas doesn't function. When, devoid of dhammas, it doesn't function, in what will the mind there make its home? Like a mural you've seen, painted on a wall, smeared with yellow orpiment, there your vision has been distorted, meaningless your perception of a human being. Like an evaporated mirage, like a tree of gold in a dream, like a magic show in the midst of a crowd — you run blind after what is unreal. Resembling a ball of sealing wax, set in a hollow, with a bubble in the middle & bathed with tears, eye secretions are born there too: The parts of the eye are rolled all together in various ways." Plucking out her lovely eye, with mind unattached she felt no regret. "Here, take this eye. It's yours." Straightaway she gave it to him [would be seducer]. Straightaway his passion faded right there, and he begged her for forgiveness. “ - Thig 14.1 Subha Jivakambavanika sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

Alex

[ground]

I haven't missed a day of meditation in over 5 years ( I keep a log ). I live an sXe lifestyle and keep most of the 5 precepts most of the time by virtue of my natural temperaments. My life isn't about making the most money I possibly can and I try to live in a respectful, cooperative manner with those around me. I also learned young that a preoccupation with immediate gratification or material gain beyond a certain point leads to some not so nice results.

Honestly ... why not just leaving it at that?

Yet, I still have these disappointments with the Pali Canon.

What are you craving?


Kind regards

[A_Martin]

To Jhana4
I replied in new topic body contemplation to you, you might want to read.
I feel now threads are being mixed up - but it makes sense the topic is body contemplation
Bhikkhu Pesala: (Geoff)
I know I am a lonely wolf, trained by a forest master, so I do disagree with you. Body contemplation is used in our tradition to create aversion. Listen to this! Greed is one part of the scale, hate the other, aversion is a subdivision of hate. If you really want to get rid of greed and hate, you have to balance the scale! Only then can you walk through the middle and then this is the end of greed and hate. (Teaching of Than Acharn Maha Bua)
Our scale is way out of balance, all our life we hankered run after pleasant things, now its time to face up with unpleasant sensations, aversion hate and so on. Learn how to deal with them. If body contemplation does not bring up aversion and hateful feelings, then you are doing something wrong!
Metta
Martin

[Jhana4]

Venerable A_Martin;

I'm a long term, regular meditator. I find the teaching of various dhamma teachers inspiring and I find read the suttas interesting. I've taken several informal classes at a local temple as well as meditating at that temple.

Buddhism is not my religion.

Reiterating the suttas, beliefs or rationales to me isn't answering the point I've been trying to express in this thread.

I don't share the Theravada belief that aversion of the body needs to be taught, at least not for everyone.
I think many intelligent adults past a certain age, regardless of religious affiliation can see the first noble truth in life and as a result of that vision take a more skillfull approach to life. Being one of those intelligent adults I don't personally care for the suttas that teach aversion of the body. No disrespect to anyone, my opinion of those suttas is that they reflect a limited way of thinking I don't want to be part of. It isn't my intent to offend anyone by saying that ( it looks like my previous statement of my opinion was deleted ), I'm expressing my honest opinion as a student of Buddhism and a critical thinker.

That is my opinion and that is where we disagree.

[plwk]

Is it only my screen or is someone else here getting it too... I clicked on the thread 'Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?' by Jhana4 but halfway I am joined to 'Letting go of longing for a relationship' which is wizard's thread?

[kirk5a]

I don't find it inspiring to think that the best I can hope for is to work hard on detaching myself from life for the reward of being completely dead when I die.

That doesn't sound very inspiring to me either, put like that. But maybe that's a function of that interpretation of the Dhamma. I look at that as the "There is no life in the void, only death" interpretation. But is that the right way to look at the Dhamma?

"Once we see the world as elements, however, there's no death. And once we can see that there's no death, that's when we'll really know. If we still see that we die, that shows that we haven't yet seen the Dhamma."

"When you get to do these things, it doesn't mean that you "get" anything, for actually once the mind is empty, that means it doesn't gain anything at all. But to put it into words for those who haven't experienced it: In what ways is emptiness empty? Does it mean that everything disappears or is annihilated? Actually, you should know that emptiness doesn't mean that the mind is annihilated. All that's annihilated is clinging and attachment. What you have to do is to see what emptiness is like as it actually appears and then not latch onto it. The nature of this emptiness is that it's deathless within you — this emptiness of self — and yet the mind can still function, know, and read itself. Just don't label it or latch onto it, that's all."
- Upasika Kee Nanayon

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... .html#void" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No death, now that I find inspiring.

[Jhana4]

Is it only my screen or is someone else here getting it too... I clicked on the thread 'Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?' by Jhana4 but halfway I am joined to 'Letting go of longing for a relationship' which is wizard's thread?

An opinion of mine was removed from another thread and consolidated into this one.

[Wizard in the Forest]

Strange! The mixing of the two threads made me dizzy. I can vouch for the body contemplations, because in the case of my complicated situation in the other thread, so far this has helped me deal with my feelings of attraction and longing for a man. It honestly has helped me a lot when I think I have no way to escape my feelings of suffering. I thought before regardless I would only be able to get hurt with my situation, but in this case the suttas have inspired a sense of freedom from that situation which rather than being between a rock and a hard place is opening a third option. So, yes, the Dhamma is inspiring to me. Inspiring a sense of freedom.

[ground]

I don't find it inspiring to think that the best I can hope for is to work hard on detaching myself from life for the reward of being completely dead when I die.

That doesn't sound very inspiring to me either, put like that. But maybe that's a function of that interpretation of the Dhamma. I look at that as the "There is no life in the void, only death" interpretation. But is that the right way to look at the Dhamma?

No. It is just attachment to the thought "this life" ... "I" ... "mine"

Guess the reason is an overly "intellectual" approach ... a strong inclination toward thinking not "relaxed" by "meditation" practice.

Kind regards

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

If body contemplation does not bring up aversion and hateful feelings, then you are doing something wrong!

Āvuso, if any meditation brings up aversion and hate, then it brings up unwholesome mental states. The purpose of insight is to remove unwholesome states and to bring up wholesome states.

Its probably just confusion regarding the meaning of language, but be careful about forceful suppression through aversion. You may become a bitter and twisted misogynist, or just fall back to the lay life. With insight, one can see both subha and asubha as one wishes, and remain equanimous towards both.

Weariness with sensual pleasures and disgust (nibbidā) is not aversion. It is close to dispassion, liberation (from lust and attachment), and nibbāna.

[appicchato]

I don't share the....belief that aversion of the body needs to be taught...

Ditto...

[PeterB]

Does it follow Bhante that you think it should not be taught ?

[Jhana4]

I don't find it inspiring to think that the best I can hope for is to work hard on detaching myself from life for the reward of being completely dead when I die.

That doesn't sound very inspiring to me either, put like that. But maybe that's a function of that interpretation of the Dhamma. I look at that as the "There is no life in the void, only death" interpretation. But is that the right way to look at the Dhamma?

Kirk5a, your point comes back to the heart of my concern.

No death, now that I find inspiring.

I would too, if I thought the Pali Canon said that. It seems to me that teachers, writers and the Sangha at large flesh things out in a much more sunny way. However, I don't see how the sunnier views of the Sangha connect to the suttas. Looking at the suttas, my understanding is that nibbana can't be described, but it seems like an end to what the person is to the extent that they are gone.

Is there something directly from the suttas that would say I am flat out wrong about that?

[Jhana4]

I haven't missed a day of meditation in over 5 years ( I keep a log ). I live an sXe lifestyle and keep most of the 5 precepts most of the time by virtue of my natural temperaments. My life isn't about making the most money I possibly can and I try to live in a respectful, cooperative manner with those around me. I also learned young that a preoccupation with immediate gratification or material gain beyond a certain point leads to some not so nice results.

Honestly ... why not just leaving it at that?

Curiosity.

There are people who claim they are inspired by the Pali Canon. I feel enriched by my readings of the Pali Canon, but not inspired. I wonder why I am not inspired but other people are.

Did I miss something they didn't ?
Do they simply disregard the things in the Pali Canon that do not inspire me?
Have they not come across the things I have or failed to understand them?

If it is the first situation I would certainly like to know how they find the Pali Canon inspiring and if I could find it inspiring being who I am.