"Dogs do it better"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sovatthika
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by Sovatthika » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:49 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 am
Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
can someone source this sutta for me. i thought sona sutta was where the deva asked buddha if he was a human
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

perkele
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by perkele » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:04 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:35 am
Tom wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pm
Referring to the point about Brahmins having sex only with non-brahmins, does this mean that it is better to have sex only with those in one’s caste? If so, does this have any implications for people who belong to an ethnic group that doesn’t have a caste system?
Caste is not necessarily the same a race or ethic group. Caste refers to social status or social values. Therefore, as taught in AN 4.55, it is ideal a person marry another person with the same religious, moral & social values. Also, since I assume Brahmins were the priestly caste, I assume or guess the Buddha expected Brahmins to marry women with high moral values.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I think you overinterpret the Buddha's statements about Brahmins here, and that the Buddha did not expect anything of Brahmins. He was simply mocking them here for their pride (which he did repeatedly on several occasions).

AN 4.55 speaks about being "in tune in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment".

I think the Buddha on multiple occasions made statements to the effect that caste is not by any means a predicator for insight, or morality, or any good and noble human quality.

The way the Buddha spoke about Brahmins can be a bit confusing. Because sometimes he was mocking Brahmins and their ways as they were in the world at that time, and sometimes he held high the ideal of a Brahmin as someone who had attained some wisdom, even using the term Brahmin as an honorary designation for a true monk and contemplative in his own dispensation.

See for example the Vasala Sutta (Sn 1.7): Discourse on Outcasts.

perkele
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by perkele » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:12 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:49 am
Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 am
Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
can someone source this sutta for me. i thought sona sutta was where the deva asked buddha if he was a human
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

There are often multiple suttas bearing the same title, in this case Soṇa perhaps being the name of someone (perhaps some brahmin) who was present when the discourse was held, someone who prompted the Buddha to speak this way, or something.
I think those sutta titles are also by no means canonical. I have seen many suttas being referred to by multiple different names.

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