A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

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Assaji
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Assaji »

Thank you, Nathan, for your inspiring and valuable posts.

I think this discussion won't be so heated if the participants didn't have a personal experience of the states discussed. The issue is that people tend to mix the experience with it's interpretation, and then to defend this interpretation.

It's interesting how various interpretations of jhana become self-fulfilling prophecies - a person believes in a given interpretation, prectices the methods recommended, and indeed arives to the states described.

That's why the words of the Buddha are so precious to consult.

Metta, Dmytro
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tiltbillings
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Nathan, for your inspiring and valuable posts.

I think this discussion won't be so heated if the participants didn't have a personal experience of the states discussed. The issue is that people tend to mix the experience with it's interpretation, and then to defend this interpretation.

It's interesting how various interpretations of jhana become self-fulfilling prophecies - a person believes in a given interpretation, prectices the methods recommended, and indeed arives to the states described.

That's why the words of the Buddha are so precious to consult.

Metta, Dmytro
This all seems to be quite so.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:
Also , there is no support for the claim that one goes beyond the 5 senses only in the arupa states.
This is described, for example, in Potthapada sutta (DN 9):

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, poṭṭhapāda, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati. Tassa yā purimā rūpasaññā, sā nirujjhati. Ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññā tasmiṃ samaye hoti, ākāsānañcāyatanasukhumasaccasaññīyeva tasmiṃ samaye hoti. Evampi sikkhā ekā saññā uppajjati, sikkhā ekā saññā nirujjhati. Ayampi sikkhā’’ti bhagavā avoca.

"Again, by passing entirely beyond bodily sensations, by the disappearance of all sense of resistance and by non-attraction to the perception of diversity, seeing that space is infinite, he reaches and remains in the Sphere of Infinite Space. In this way some perceptions arise through training, and some pass away through training."
Hi Dmytro

May I ask why rūpasaññāna above has been translated as "bodily sensations"? Who did this translation?

In your other Dhamma forum, you said this -
The relevant Suttanta passage in this regard, is one that occurs in various suttas:

“There are these five cords of sense desire:” [kàmaguna: "chords of sense desire" -- thanks piotr smile.gif ] “forms cognizable by the eye that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust. Sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body, wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust.” (SN XXXVI.31: Niramisa Sutta; trans. Nyanaponika Thera)

And it unmistakable that the “sensual pleasures” which are to be withdrawn from prior to entering jhana as stated in the jhana formula, are precisely these five: “forms cognizable by the eye... sounds cognizable by the ear... odors cognizable by the nose... flavors cognizable by the tongue... tangibles cognizable by the body ... that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense-desire and tempting to lust. And so it isn’t all forms, etc., that the meditator need to withdraw from (as stated in the jhana formula), the meditator simply needs to withdraw from those which tempt him or her, giving rise to lust, as stated here. As always, this makes perfect sense and is borne out by experience.
You may care to re-visit the Nibbedhika Sutta, AN 6.63 where the Buddha specifically injuncts the conflation of the "kāmaguṇā" with "kāmā".
Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā— cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā, sotaviññeyyā saddā… ghānaviññeyyā gandhā… jivhāviññeyyā rasā… kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṃhitā rajanīyā. Api ca kho, bhikkhave, nete kāmā kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti

There are these five kāmaguṇā. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body — agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not kāmā. They are called kāmaguṇā in the discipline of the noble ones.
If the "kāmā" meant only the kāmaguṇā, then we are going to end up with very bizzare situations where the kāmaguṇā, instead of giving pleasure, give only pain.

The Critical Pali Dictionary has done a very comprehensive survey and its entries on kāmā and kāmaguṇā distinguish them. The CPD follows the canonical definition of kāmaguṇā and what that leads to is the kāmaguṇā being a sub-set of the kāmā. The "kāmā" are defined simply as rūpā, saddā, gandhā, rasā and phoṭṭhabbā, all WITHOUT the adjectives.

That, IMHO, is the plain and simple meaning of kāmā in the vivicc'eva kāmehi formula of 1st Jhana.
Last edited by Sylvester on Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
nathan
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by nathan »

Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Nathan, for your inspiring and valuable posts.

I think this discussion won't be so heated if the participants didn't have a personal experience of the states discussed. The issue is that people tend to mix the experience with it's interpretation, and then to defend this interpretation.

It's interesting how various interpretations of jhana become self-fulfilling prophecies - a person believes in a given interpretation, prectices the methods recommended, and indeed arives to the states described.

That's why the words of the Buddha are so precious to consult.

Metta, Dmytro
Thank you for the kind reply Dmytro. I have no idea what other posters experience or not. Interestingly, in relation to your comment on self-fulfilling prophecies, I initially did this introspection long ago, to the end, before I ever read about buddhism at all simply because I felt compelled to do it. I was searching for my soul, having been raised by a Baptist minister who repeatedly and emphatically insisted that the eternal fate of my soul was all important which led to a great deal of anxiety and concern for it on my part. I went looking for that soul and in the process I encountered all of the above dependently conditioned mental qualities and ultimately the complete cessation of consciousness by means of concentration and insight.

It wasn't until a couple of decades later when I first began reading the Tipitaka that I discovered such eloquent descriptions of the same process. It would have been and continues to be beyond my capacities to dissect the entire process in terms of such reductive minutia but it did proceed, in terms of the jhana much as Sariputta himself described, one state to the next, and with full cognizance and discernment of what was occurring. I can only say that I find the fixation with the minutia of the descriptions of the process by the Blessed Buddha and his Sangha somewhat odd considering the relative simplicity and fluidity of the process when one is truly concerned with it as if it were a matter more pertinent than life and death, which for me, it certainly was and is.

Further, I have never felt that jhana apart from the simultaneous employment of discernment and the development of insights is of any use or interest. Nor have I ever encountered any passionate desire for remaining in jhana at any length nor for the purpose of avoiding normal day to day life or any other states of mind. Nor have I felt any need to deepen jhana to the point that there is no capacity to emerge from it at any point I would like to nor that there is any point in making a sport of entering into and out of various jhanas. I find both Ajahn Brahm''s and the Visuddhimagga's particular kinds of emphasis of jhana odd in relation to my own experience. I have always attempted to express the benefits of developing discernment and insight together with calm and concentration. As far as I have ever found, the two mental qualities are mutually supportive, mutually instructive, operate well together and together these lead to the realizations and understandings which are the expressed objectives of the Buddhadhamma.

I very much doubt that I would have arrived at cessation for the first time if I was trying to replicate some particular kind of practice technique based upon the Visudhimagga or upon the teachings of anyone else whom I have subsequently encountered with the possible exception of the instructions which are found in the Buddha's own discourses, doctrines and disciplines, which uniquely appear to be entirely direct and to the point. His directness is easily noted in retrospect however it is no less astonishing an accomplishment to subsequently encounter and an impressively comprehensive one as well.

What initially took me to the point of cessation was an intense need to know what was on the receiving end of my conscious existence. It was a great relief to discover what is actually there when consciousness ceases and in comparison everything else I do is simply passing the time peacefully until that which I did find is all that remains. Were it not for the concern for other beings that naturally arises from the gnosis that we are merely empty mechanisms for the furtherance of conditionally dependent dukkha, I would not try to communicate what I have encountered at all. It is my sincere hope that people will set aside their reasoning about methodologies and simply look skillfully, intently and exhaustively within their own bodies and minds to determine the truth of their own nature as this is the only way they can fully confirm the truth of the Buddhadhamma for themselves.

upekkha
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:You're still evading the elephant in the room. How is the Dhamma-Vicaya and Dhammavicayabojjhanga indicated in red above different from the Dhamma-Vicaya and Dhammavicayasambojjhanga in the suttas? The suttas which Dmytro and I cited clearly state that Dhamma-Vicaya and Dhammavicayasambojjhanga must have vicara, and be preceded by vitakka in Sati.
It seems this elephant is an illusion.

There's no 'must have' in the descriptions of 'dhamma-vicaya' I quote:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5582" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For example, "parivīmaṃsa" without the "vicara" would still be dhamma-vicaya.

Best wishes, Dmytro
Hi Dmytro

I read the SN 46.3 enumeration of Dhamma-vicaya as "must-haves", not enumerations of separate types of investigations, each of which will suffice individually. The Pali lists all three of pavicinati, pavicarati, and parivīmaṃsamāpajjati happening "yasmiṃ samaye" before dhammavicayasambojjhaṅga is aroused etc "tasmiṃ samaye".

I take it from the above that, unlike Geoff, you are of the position that in order to vipassati, one must have Dhamma-vicaya?

Or are you opting for his interpretation that one can vipassati without Dhamma-vicaya?
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:I take it from the above that, unlike Geoff, you are of the position that in order to vipassati, one must have Dhamma-vicaya?

Or are you opting for his interpretation that one can vipassati without Dhamma-vicaya?
Another fallacious misrepresentation. I completely fail to understand what you hope to gain by misrepresenting what I've said. I've already suggested two good sources for deepening one's appreciation and understanding of the integral model of the 37 requisites of awakening. Unless there is some agreement about path structure and some basic terms like sati, sampajañña, samādhi, saññā, nimitta, and mahaggatā citta, and how these relate to the kasiṇa jhānas, the brahmavihāra jhānas, the asubha jhānas, and so on, there is little basis for meaningful discussion.

All the best,

Geoff
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote: If this indulgence in the subha nimitta of a dhamma were such a bad thing, why would the Buddha have recommended it as part of the Third Vimokkha or as the Subha Vimokkha?
Indeed, why would the Buddha have recommended it?

In fact, he never recommended it. Subha Vimokkha is related to the development of Metta.
I see the Buddha teaching a gradual Path, and if niramisa sukha is not touched, how will His disciples desire to escape samisa sukha?
There's nothing wrong with niramisa sukkha per se, if there's no attachment to it.
As to the blue point, I think the Mettasahagata Sutta is not speaking of mettabhavana. It spoke of mettasahagata. Then, it speaks of karunasahagata which leads to the attainment of Infinite Space, it speaks of muditasahagata which leads to the attainment of Infinite Consciousness, and it speaks of upekkhasahagata which leads to the attainment of Nothingness. The inference from the sequence must be that the development of the 7 Enlightenment Factors accompanied by metta leads to the Jhanas.

As to the red point, I have suggested that MN 44 makes it clear that there is no raga and no raganusaya when experiencing 1st Jhana sukha. You have opted instead for the Commentarial explanation, with which I disagree. Borrowing Ajahn Thannisaro's translation for convenience, with the key terms returned to the Pali and the key elision expanded-
"Does raganusaya anuseti with all pleasant feeling? Does patighanusaya anuseti with all painful feeling? Does avijjanusaya anuseti with all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"No, raganusaya does not anuseti with all pleasant feeling..."

"But what is to be abandoned with regard to pleasant feeling? What is to be abandoned with regard to painful feeling? What is to be abandoned with regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"Raganusaya is to be abandoned with regard to pleasant feeling. Patighanusaya is to be abandoned with regard to painful feeling. Avijjanusaya is to be abandoned with regard to neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

"Is raganusaya to be abandoned with regard to all pleasant feeling? Is patighanusaya to be abandoned with regard to all painful feeling? Is avijjanusaya to be abandoned with regard to all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"No! ...

There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from kāmā, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons raga. No raganusaya (latent tendency to lust) anuseti (underlies) there.

Sabbāya nu kho, ayye, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo anuseti, sabbāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo anuseti, sabbāya adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo anusetī”ti?

“Na kho, āvuso visākha, sabbāya sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo anuseti, na sabbāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo anuseti, na sabbāya adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo anusetī”ti.

“Sukhāya panāyye, vedanāya kiṃ pahātabbaṃ, dukkhāya vedanāya kiṃ pahātabbaṃ, adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya kiṃ pahātabban”ti?

“Sukhāya kho, āvuso visākha, vedanāya rāgānusayo pahātabbo, dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo pahātabbo, adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo pahātabbo”ti.

“Sabbāya nu kho, ayye, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo pahātabbo, sabbāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo pahātabbo, sabbāya adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo pahātabbo”ti?

“Na kho, āvuso visākha, sabbāya sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo pahātabbo, na sabbāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo pahātabbo, na sabbāya adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayo pahātabbo. Idhāvuso visākha, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ vivekajaṃ pītisukhaṃ paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. Rāgaṃ tena pajahati, na tattha rāgānusayo anuseti.
In your earlier opinion, you offered your thoughts that the passage underlined red should be read as extinction of raga through insight into 1st Jhana. This is how you read "with that"/tena. IMHO, the passage is very clear that the "tena" simply occurs at 1st Jhana, and not much later on enlightenment. The point to note is that the passage explicitly says that raganusaya does not anuseti with 1st Jhana pleasure.

If you look at how other suttas present raganusaya and how it anuseti sukha vedana, it becomes clear that raganusaya is the consequence of raga. Eg from SN 36.6 -
Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind).

Tassāyeva kho pana dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno paṭighavā hoti. Tamenaṃ dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighavantaṃ, yo dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayo, so anuseti. So dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno kāmasukhaṃ abhinandati. Taṃ kissa hetu? Na hi so, bhikkhave, pajānāti assutavā puthujjano aññatra kāmasukhā dukkhāya vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ, tassa kāmasukhañca abhinandato, yo sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayo, so anuseti.
Since MN 44 explicitly states that raganusaya does not anuseti 1st Jhana's pleasure, it becomes clear that the cause of raganusaya is also absent in 1st Jhana. That, in my view, is how "Rāgaṃ tena pajahati" should be simply read.

1st Jhana is not the only place where raganusaya does not anuseti a pleasant feeling. Raganusaya is not inevitable. I've mentioned previously that MN 152 seems to imply that an instructed putthujana practising satipatthana will not be touched by raganusaya. There is another sutta in the SN (references later, if you can wait) where the sutta explicitly states that 3 anusayas do not underlie the respective feelings on the occassion when the meditator undertakes the satipatthanas correctly. The sutta was not referring to an Arahant's meditation.

Of course, MN 138 as it stands directly conflicts with the literal reading of MN 44, plus the SN satipatthana sutta I mentioned. Let's see how Ven Analayo proposes that MN 138 may have suffered a transmission error, based on his comparison of MN 138 to the Chinese MA 164. I suspect that when the analysis is offered, any inconsistency between MN 138 and MN 44 will be resolved.
Last edited by Sylvester on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Ñāṇa wrote:
Sylvester wrote:I take it from the above that, unlike Geoff, you are of the position that in order to vipassati, one must have Dhamma-vicaya?

Or are you opting for his interpretation that one can vipassati without Dhamma-vicaya?
Another fallacious misrepresentation. I completely fail to understand what you hope to gain by misrepresenting what I've said. I've already suggested two good sources for deepening one's appreciation and understanding of the integral model of the 37 requisites of awakening. Unless there is some agreement about path structure and some basic terms like sati, sampajañña, samādhi, saññā, nimitta, and mahaggatā citta, and how these relate to the kasiṇa jhānas, the brahmavihāra jhānas, the asubha jhānas, and so on, there is little basis for meaningful discussion.

All the best,

Geoff
For the 4th time, Geoff -

Do you assert that one can vipassati without the Dhammavicayasambojjhanga?

Yes or No?

Pls explain how the Dhamma-Vicaya and Dhammavicayabojjhanga indicated in the Abhidhamma are different from the Dhamma-Vicaya and Dhammavicayasambojjhanga in the suttas.


Where is Vajirapani when I need him?
Last edited by Sylvester on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Sylvester,
As for the arupa-samapatti not having kamasanna, I hope you won't make the same logical mistake of the fallacy of denying the antecedent which Geoff committed with MN 43.
This sounds like an old manipulative trick: "I hope you don't beat your wife every day, don't you?".

If you would like a reply from me, please be more explicit.

Best wishes, Dmytro

No trick or trap. I merely assumed you may have followed the Jhana Debate thread. Anyway, my critique of Geoff's fallacy in misreading MN 43 is here-

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ent#p74650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Thank you, Nathan, for your inspiring and valuable posts.

I think this discussion won't be so heated if the participants didn't have a personal experience of the states discussed. The issue is that people tend to mix the experience with it's interpretation, and then to defend this interpretation.

It's interesting how various interpretations of jhana become self-fulfilling prophecies - a person believes in a given interpretation, prectices the methods recommended, and indeed arives to the states described.

That's why the words of the Buddha are so precious to consult.

Metta, Dmytro
This all seems to be quite so.

Seconded.
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote:
Where is Vajirapani when I need him?
Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sylvester
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Where is Vajirapani when I need him?
Image

Thanks, but I was thinking about the canonical one from DN 3, who should a nice chlorophyll green by Thai iconographic convention. :anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
Where is Vajirapani when I need him?
Image

Thanks, but I was thinking about the canonical one from DN 3, who should a nice chlorophyll green by Thai iconographic convention. :anjali:
Alas, not to be found easily. Probably need the Thai name, but in the meantime scary Tibetan image will have to stand in.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by imagemarie »

I can only say that I find the fixation with the minutia of the descriptions of the process by the Blessed Buddha and his Sangha somewhat odd considering the relative simplicity and fluidity of the process when one is truly concerned with it

I have never felt that jhana apart from the simultaneous employment of discernment and the development of insights is of any use or interest.

Nor have I ever encountered any passionate desire for remaining in jhana at any length nor for the purpose of avoiding normal day to day life or any other states of mind. Nor have I felt any need to deepen jhana to the point that there is no capacity to emerge from it at any point I would like to nor that there is any point in making a sport of entering into and out of various jhanas.

What initially took me to the point of cessation was an intense need to know what was on the receiving end of my conscious existence
This is pertinent to my own practice. Thank-you. :smile:

:anjali:
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Re: A Critique of Brahmavamso’s “The Jhanas”

Post by PeterB »

imagemarie wrote:
I can only say that I find the fixation with the minutia of the descriptions of the process by the Blessed Buddha and his Sangha somewhat odd considering the relative simplicity and fluidity of the process when one is truly concerned with it

I have never felt that jhana apart from the simultaneous employment of discernment and the development of insights is of any use or interest.

Nor have I ever encountered any passionate desire for remaining in jhana at any length nor for the purpose of avoiding normal day to day life or any other states of mind. Nor have I felt any need to deepen jhana to the point that there is no capacity to emerge from it at any point I would like to nor that there is any point in making a sport of entering into and out of various jhanas.

What initially took me to the point of cessation was an intense need to know what was on the receiving end of my conscious existence
This is pertinent to my own practice. Thank-you. :smile:

:anjali:
In terms of the overall post mine too, although I have grave doubts about references to ones own "cessation" at all sorts of levels.
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