"Enlightened in regard to all things"

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Sherab
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"Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:59 pm

Came across this verse:
23. "Here, I see no ground on which any recluse or brahman or god or Mara or Brahma or anyone at all in the world could, in accordance with the Dhamma, accuse me thus: 'While you claim full enlightenment, you are not fully enlightened in regard to certain things.' [72] And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since the Buddha was refuting the accusation that he was not fully enlightened in regard to certain things, it would seemed that he was indirectly claiming that he was enlightened in regard to all things.

If so what then is the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things". If not, how should the verse be interpreted?

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acinteyyo
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by acinteyyo » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:04 pm

Sherab wrote:Came across this verse:
23. "Here, I see no ground on which any recluse or brahman or god or Mara or Brahma or anyone at all in the world could, in accordance with the Dhamma, accuse me thus: 'While you claim full enlightenment, you are not fully enlightened in regard to certain things.' [72] And seeing no ground for that, I abide in safety, fearlessness and intrepidity.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Since the Buddha was refuting the accusation that he was not fully enlightened in regard to certain things, it would seemed that he was indirectly claiming that he was enlightened in regard to all things.

If so what then is the meaning of "enlightened in regard to all things". If not, how should the verse be interpreted?
The Buddha was enlightend in regard to all things. The All, all things simply are the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
Sabba Sutta: The All SN 35.23
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Itivuttaka 112
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "The world [1] has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. From the world, the Tathagata is disjoined. The origination of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The origination of the world has, by the Tathagata, been abandoned. The cessation of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The cessation of the world has, by the Tathagata, been realized. The path leading to the cessation of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The path leading to the cessation of the world has, by the Tathagata, been developed.
[1] SN 35.82 defines the "world" as the six sense spheres, their objects, consciousness at those spheres, contact at those spheres, and whatever arises in dependence on that contact, experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:53 pm

Would you agree that "the All" refers to all things/phenomena that can be sensed and therefore exclude whatever that is not within the realm of senses?
If yes, do you confine "the All" to the present or do you include "the All" that has passed and "the All" that is to come?

alan
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by alan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:13 am

Not an appropriate question... accinteyo's response contains all the references you need.

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ground
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by ground » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:07 am

Sherab wrote:Would you agree that "the All" refers to all things/phenomena that can be sensed and therefore exclude whatever that is not within the realm of senses?
Yes. "Sense bases" include "mind" because there are 6.
Sherab wrote: If yes, do you confine "the All" to the present or do you include "the All" that has passed and "the All" that is to come?
The "aggregates" include past, present and future. "sense spheres" necessarily refers to the aggregates: Sense base and objects are form, sense consciousness is consciousness, contact entails feeling, perception and volition(al formations).

In contrast to the "timelessly momentary" aggregates "past" and "future" aggregates however refer to mind only, not to the physical senses. Therefore it refers to conceivings which are - according to the Buddha - to be uprooted.
So "the All" actually includes delusion which - if accompanied by mindfulness - loses its dukkha potential.

Kind regards

rowyourboat
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:37 am

Anything you can't sense, you can't know for sure, exists. Then any assertion made about 'their' existence is pure speculation. I could come up with my own version of reality and so could everyone, based entirely on imagination. When they have been around for a while they start gaining some credibility and people start accepting them without questioning, making them 'real' in their own minds.

While things may exist that we can't sense, there existence is unknowable (in an ultimate sense -I do not mean this in a scientific sense). However to make assumptions on what we cannot know is that path to ridicule, nonsense and madness.

So what can be known is the stimuli from the six senses. The Buddha knew everything there was to know about them. Hope that is clear.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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acinteyyo
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:52 pm

Sherab wrote:Would you agree that "the All" refers to all things/phenomena that can be sensed and therefore exclude whatever that is not within the realm of senses?
I wouldn't, because your statement depends on assumptions which lie beyond range, see Sabba Sutta: The All SN 35.23.
SN 35.23
"Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
What might be the grounds for your assumption that there is something not within the realm of senses?
Sherab wrote:If yes, do you confine "the All" to the present or do you include "the All" that has passed and "the All" that is to come?
There is only "the All" in the present moment. When you're talking about 'the present that existed in the past' ("the All" that has passed") it is simply another way of talking about 'the past that exists in the present'. When you're talking about 'a present which will be in the future' ("the All" that is to come) it is simply another way of talking about 'a future which exists in the present'.
This is what Ven. Ñanavira once said about it:
Notes on Dhamma :: Fundamental Structure :: II. DYNAMIC ASPECT - §10
Past and future (as well as present) exist in the present; but they exist as past and as future. And since each 'present' is a self-sufficient totality, complete with the entire past and the entire future, it is meaningless to ask whether the past and the future that exist at present are the same as the real past or future, that is to say as the present that was existing in the past and the present that will be existing in the future: 'the present that existed in the past' is simply another way of saying 'the past that exists in the present'.[o] From this it will be understood that whenever we discuss past, present, and future, we are discussing the present hierarchy, and whenever we discuss the present hierarchy we are discussing past, present, and future.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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kirk5a
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by kirk5a » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:32 pm

With regard to things
Command-A
selects "All"
to delete
or not to delete
is that the question?

(just a little mac humor)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

rowyourboat
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by rowyourboat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:07 pm

kirk5a wrote:With regard to things
Command-A
selects "All"
to delete
or not to delete
is that the question?

(just a little mac humor)
Hi Kirk,

The question arises, only because the All exists. No 'All, no question... no problem. :anjali:

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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acinteyyo
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by acinteyyo » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:17 pm

kirk5a wrote:With regard to things
Command-A
selects "All"
to delete
or not to delete
is that the question?

(just a little mac humor)
hm... practice the noble 8-fold path or try command-Q :tongue:
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:09 am

acinteyyo wrote:I wouldn't, because your statement depends on assumptions which lie beyond range, see Sabba Sutta: The All SN 35.23.
Would this sentence be more agreeable to you? : "The All" refers to all things/phenomena that can be sensed and anything beyond the realm of senses is mere speculation and irrelevant.

If so, how would you regard those things that man cannot sense? For example, magnetic fields? Note that the teachings only talked about the five senses.

And how would you regard hypotheses and theories that are useful but cannot be proven, let alone sense, and would be beyond the comprehension of most people?
acinteyyo wrote:Past and future (as well as present) exist in the present; but they exist as past and as future.
Is this what the Buddha taught?

Also if you accept that free will/choice exists in the present, then you will have to advocate a multiverse theory since there will be many different paths that the future can take depending on the choices that you make in the present. All these futures have to exist side by side with one another in the present don't they?

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beeblebrox
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by beeblebrox » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:19 am

Sherab wrote: Would this sentence be more agreeable to you? : "The All" refers to all things/phenomena that can be sensed and anything beyond the realm of senses is mere speculation and irrelevant.

If so, how would you regard those things that man cannot sense? For example, magnetic fields? Note that the teachings only talked about the five senses.

And how would you regard hypotheses and theories that are useful but cannot be proven, let alone sense, and would be beyond the comprehension of most people?
It's six senses. The theory about magnetic fields was constructed by mind, the sense #6... based on what's been observed with the mind, along with some of the other senses. It's really that simple. And not only that, the way we apprehend, or understand this theory is also through our own mind. If these magnetic fields actually existed outside of the "All", then we won't even have a theory for it... that would be impossible.

:anjali:

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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:34 am

beeblebrox wrote:The theory about magnetic fields was constructed by mind, the sense #6... based on what's been observed with the mind, along with some of the other senses. It's really that simple. And not only that, the way we apprehend, or understand this theory is also through our own mind. If these magnetic fields actually existed outside of the "All", then we won't even have a theory for it... that would be impossible.
Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you saying that the mind constructed the theory of magnetic fields and sense its own construction? That there is no magnetic field out there to be sensed by a sense power (which I mentioned previously, man does not possessed)?

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beeblebrox
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by beeblebrox » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:44 am

Sherab wrote:Perhaps I misunderstood you, but are you saying that the mind constructed the theory of magnetic fields and sense its own construction? That there is no magnetic field out there to be sensed by a sense power (which I mentioned previously, man does not possessed)?
Yes, you misunderstood. The mind don't construct the magnetic fields themselves... it only perceived these, and then constructed a theory about it.

Actually, I think it's more accurate to say that the khandhas are what construct the theories (fabrications), based on what's been perceived by the senses. These senses also explains why the khandhas (which themselves are a theory of aggregates) are listed the way they are. Hope this is clear. It's basically a loop, between viññana and namarupa... which is the "All." (Mind & ideas, eyes & forms, etc.)

:anjali:

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Sherab
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Re: "Enlightened in regard to all things"

Post by Sherab » Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:21 am

beeblebrox wrote:The mind don't construct the magnetic fields themselves... it only perceived these, and then constructed a theory about it.

Actually, I think it's more accurate to say that the khandhas are what construct the theories (fabrications), based on what's been perceived by the senses. These senses also explains why the khandhas (which themselves are a theory of aggregates) are listed the way they are. Hope this is clear. It's basically a loop, between viññana and namarupa... which is the "All." (Mind & ideas, eyes & forms, etc.)
Is "the All" then confined to the present only since what has passed is no longer existing and what has not come is non-existent?

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