Human realm vs. Heaven

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sidney
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:42 am

Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Sidney » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:50 am

Realms such as hell, heavenly, hungry ghost, human, etc., can be used to describe mental states that we all go through every day.

As for life before or after death, MN 63::
"Whoever says that as long as the Enlightened One has not solved the problems concerning whether "this world is eternal or not eternal; whether this self and body are one and the same or the self is one thing and the body another; or whether there is or is not life after death, or whether there is a confirmation of both existence and non-existence or a denial of existence and non-existence after death; " I will not live the Holy Life (brahmacariya) that the Enlightened One has set down -- this person is likely to die before he hears the answers to these questions, because the Thathagata does not speculate about such matters."

We can agree to disagree.
Jack[/quote]

A Wise Blind Man and a Castaway

Once a sailor was drifted to a small island inhabited by people who were blind from birth. However, they have developed their other four senses and could live easily on fruits and berries and fishes which were abundant. They can spike fishes using their acute sense of hearing, and their headman was very wise and articulate.
One evening while they were sitting on the beach the castaway made a remark on the beautiful sunset, praising the glory of the sun. The wise man overheard and asked him, ’what are you talking about; there’s no sun here.’
So, the castaway tried to explain him about the sun and how beautiful its rays are, and all about the colours of a rainbow. The headman was perplexed and refused to accept the existence of the sun.
The castaway then, tried to give him an example on the warmth when going out in the sun, hoping that he could understand using the perception that the headman can experience. But he replied ’Oh, there must be some fire on the island.’
The castaway grabbed this opportunity and tried again, ‘yes, it’s like a big ball of fire up in the sky.’
However, the obstinate headman replied ‘I have been here ages ago, and I know each and every place; there’s no sky and there’s no sun!’ ‘If there is sky I can touch it and so the sun; I know if I touch fire it burns.’
The castaway finally gave up knowing that he would never convince the wise blind man and proclaimed, ‘that must be the reason why the Buddha did not engage in further discussion with the Brahmin as He would waste His precious time teaching and helping people to get enlightened.’
‘We Agree to Disagree.’

Sidney
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:42 am

Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Sidney » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:05 am

[quote="kirk5a"][quote="Sidney"]Hi Kirk,

The reference on Sotanugata sutta can be found in Sutta Pitaka; Anguttara Nikaya: Catukkanipatta: 504-509


N.B. You will need 'vri Pali font' to decode the following verses. It is available on Vipassana Research Institute website; please use vri Pali font search.

MUULA PALI- INTERNATIONAL
Anguttra Nikaya
Catukkanip±ta p±¼i: 504 - 507 (1)
( 20) 5. Mah±vaggo (1)
1. Sot±nugatasutta½
191. “Sot±nugat±na½ bhikkhave, dhamm±na½, vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ catt±ro ±nisa½s± p±µikaªkh±. Katame (pg. 1.0505) catt±ro? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati ‚ k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapad± plavanti ‚ . Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Sot±nugat±na½, bhikkhave, dhamm±na½, vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ aya½ paµhamo ±nisa½so p±µikaªkho.
“Puna capara½, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti; api ca kho bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti. Tassa eva½ hoti– ‘aya½ v± so dhammavinayo, yatth±ha½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarin’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippameva visesag±m² hoti. Seyyath±pi, bhikkhave, puriso kusalo bherisaddassa. So .kaªkh± v± vimati v±– ‘bherisaddo nu kho, na nu kho bherisaddo’ti! Atha kho bherisaddotveva niµµha½ gaccheyya. Evameva½ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti; api ca kho bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti. Tassa eva½ hoti– ‘aya½ v± so dhammavinayo, yatth±ha½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarin’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Sot±nugat±na½, bhikkhave, dhamm±na½ (pg. 1.0506) vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ aya½ dutiyo ±nisa½so p±µikaªkho.
“Puna capara½, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti, napi bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti; api ca kho devaputto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti. Tassa eva½ hoti– ‘aya½ v± so dhammavinayo, yatth±ha½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarin’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Seyyath±pi, bhikkhave, puriso kusalo saªkhasaddassa. So addh±namaggappaµipanno saªkhasadda½ suºeyya. Tassa na heva kho assa kaªkh± v± vimati v±– ‘saªkhasaddo nu kho, na nu kho saªkhasaddo’ti! Atha kho saªkhasaddotveva niµµha½ gaccheyya. Evameva½ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti, napi bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti; api ca kho devaputto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti. Tassa eva½ hoti– ‘aya½ v± so dhammavinayo, yatth±ha½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarin’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Sot±nugat±na½, bhikkhave, dhamm±na½, vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ aya½ tatiyo ±nisa½so p±µikaªkho.
“Puna capara½, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti, napi bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti, napi devaputto devaparis±ya½ (pg. 1.0507) dhamma½ deseti; api ca kho opap±tiko opap±tika½ s±reti– ‘sarasi tva½, m±risa, sarasi tva½ m±risa, yattha maya½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarimh±’ti. So evam±ha– ‘sar±mi, m±risa, sar±mi, m±ris±’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Seyyath±pi, bhikkhave, dve sah±yak± sahapa½suk²¼ik± ‚ . Te kad±ci karahaci aññamañña½ sam±gaccheyyu½. Añño pana ‚ sah±yako sah±yaka½ eva½ vadeyya– ‘idampi, samma, sarasi, idampi, samma, saras²’ti. So eva½ vadeyya– ‘sar±mi samma, sar±mi, samm±’ti. Evameva½ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhamma½ pariy±puº±ti– sutta½, geyya½, veyy±karaºa½, g±tha½, ud±na½, itivuttaka½, j±taka½, abbhutadhamma½, vedalla½. Tassa te dhamm± sot±nugat± honti, vacas± paricit±, manas±nupekkhit±, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±. So muµµhassati k±la½ kurum±no aññatara½ devanik±ya½ upapajjati. Tassa tattha na heva kho sukhino dhammapad± plavanti, napi bhikkhu iddhim± cetovasippatto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti, napi devaputto devaparis±ya½ dhamma½ deseti; api ca kho opap±tiko opap±tika½ s±reti– ‘sarasi tva½, m±risa, sarasi tva½, m±risa, yattha maya½ pubbe brahmacariya½ acarimh±’ti. So evam±ha – ‘sar±mi, m±risa, sar±mi, m±ris±’ti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satupp±do; atha kho so satto khippa½yeva visesag±m² hoti. Sot±nugat±na½, bhikkhave, dhamm±na½, vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½, diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ aya½ catuttho ±nisa½so p±µikaªkho. Sot±nugat±na½, bhikkhave, dhamm±na½, vacas± paricit±na½, manas±nupekkhit±na½ diµµhiy± suppaµividdh±na½ ime catt±ro ±nisa½s± p±µikaªkh±”ti. Paµhama½.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION (2)
(20) 5. Maha Vagga
1. SOTANUGATA SUTTA
Discourse on Benefits Acquired by Hearing (the Dhamma)
191. Bhikkhus, definite benefits accruing from what has been acquired by hearing, what has been constantly practised by reciting, what has been borne in mind and what has been penetratingly known by intellect are these four kinds.
What are the four ?
Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu in this Teaching has learnt the Teaching, namely Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken these in by hearing, constantly practised these by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If that bhikkhu dies (by any chance in forgetfulness), he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are clearly manifest. Bhikkhus, arising of recollections may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the (definite) benefits accruing from what has been acquired by hearing, what has been constantly practised by reciting, what has been borne in mind, and what has been penetratingly known by intellect.

Another kind, bhikkhus, is that a bhikkhu in this Teaching has learnt the Teaching namely, Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are not clearly manifest. Then a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind expounds to the deva audience the Teachings (of the Buddha), and it occurs to that (forgetting) person thus; ‘The noble practice of the Teaching which I have practised before is the same as this dhamma (which this bhikkhu is expounding).’ Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly.
Bhikkhus, if a drum expert hears a sound of a drum on his long journey, he has no uncertainity in discerning whether it is the sound of a drum or not, but he can decide with certainty that it is the sound of a drum. In the same instance, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu has learnt Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are clearly manifest. Then a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind expounds to the deva audience the Teachings (of the Buddha), and it occurs to that (forgetting) person thus; ‘The noble practice of the Teaching which I have practised before is the same as this dhamma (which this bhikkhu is expounding).’ Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the (definite) benefits accruing from what has been acquired by hearing, what has been constantly practised by reciting, what has been borne in mind, and what has been penetratingly known by intellect.

Another kind, bhikkhus, is that a bhikkhu in this Teaching has learnt the Teaching namely, Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are not clearly manifest, and a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind does not expound to the deva audience the Teachings (of the Buddha), but a deva expounds the Teachings to the deva audience, and it occurs to that (forgetting) person thus; ‘The noble practice of the Teaching which I have practised before is the same as this dhamma (which this bhikkhu is expounding).’ Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, if a conch-trumpet expert hears a sound of conch-trumpet on his long journey, he has no uncertainity in discerning whether it is the sound of a conch-trumpet or not, but he can decide with certainty that it is the sound of a conch-trumpet. In the same instance, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu has learnt Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are not clearly manifest; and a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind does not expounds to the deva audience the Teachings, but a deva expounds the Teachings to the deva audience; it occurs to that (forgetting) person thus; ‘The noble practice of the Teaching which I have practised before is the same as this dhamma (which this bhikkhu is expounding).’ Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the (definite) benefits accruing from what has been acquired by hearing, what has been constantly practised by reciting, what has been borne in mind, and what has been penetratingly known by intellect.

Another kind, bhikkhus, is that a bhikkhu in this Teaching has learnt the Teaching namely, Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are not clearly manifest; and a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind, does not expound to the deva audience the Teachings (of the Buddha), and a deva does not expound the Teachings to the deva audience either; a deva who has been before him will remind him thus: “Friend deva, remember the noble practice of the Teaching what we have practised before. Oh, friend deva, you try to remember that! Oh, friend deva, you try to remember that.” Then, that (forgetting) deva replies, “Friend deva, I remember! Friend deva, I remember!” Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly.
Bhikkhus, two friend who have been playmates of childhood days in the dust at a certain time and in a certain place meet again, one asks the other, “Friend, do you remember this event in our childhood days?” and that friend says, “Friend, I do remember! Friend, I do remember!” In the same way, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu has learnt Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella. That bhikkhu has taken in by hearing, constantly practised by reciting, borne in mind and penetratingly known by intellect. If (by any chance) that bhikkhu dies in forgetfulness, he will be reborn in a certain deva realm. There, in that person who is endowed with wellbeing in that deva realm, those dhammas are not clearly manifest; and neither a bhikkhu of high attainments in psychic power who has a well-practised mind nor a deva does not expound to the deva audience, but the deva who has been before him will remind him thus: “Friend deva, remember the noble practice of the Teaching what we have practised before. Oh, friend deva, you try to remember that.” Then, that (forgetting) deva replies, “Friend deva, I remember! Friend deva, I remember!”
Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, two friends who have been playmates of childhood days in the dust at a certain time and in a certain place meet again, one asks the other, “Friend, do you remember this event in our childhood days?” “Friend, I do remember! Friend, I do remember!”
Bhikkhus, arising of recollection may be slow in him, but he can realise the truth quickly. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the (definite) benefits accruing from what has been acquired by hearing, what has been constantly practised by reciting, what has been borne in mind, and what has been penetratingly known by intellect are these four kinds. (Thus said the Bhagava). (2)

Commentary (3)
The commentary on Sotanugata suttam given by the late Ven. Mogok Sayadaw, who was well versed in both suttam and abhidhamma, and a well documented arahat who had left Dhatu relics explained further that the acquiring of knowledge of the Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedella, in essence, is the discernment of anicca, dukkha, and anatta by hearing, reciting (sutamaya & cintamaya nana) and by vipassana insight (bhavanamaya nana), but not necessarily by higher supra-mundane magga nana.
It is definite that those who have learnt anicca, dukkha, anatta and have practised vipassana to discern these realities by sutamaya, cintamaya and bhavana maya nana would become enlightened in the next life should they be unsuccessful in perceiving nibanna in this life despite ardent effort.
Devas are more intelligent than humans and a slight incitement by any of the four ways mentioned in the sutta is enough for them to see the truth, (although devas are usually submerged in sensual pleasures and enlightenment is difficult for devas who have not practised Vipassana in the past life).

Research in the insight level required for such knowledge (6)
Since the discernment of anicca, dukkha and anatta can be acquired by learning (hearing, reciting) and by introspection through vipassana meditation, it is of interest to know which level of the insight wisdom would be the equivalent to procure sutamaya and cintamaya nana of “anicca, dukkha, and anatta.”
Research into the literature shows that the stage of insight into the causal relation between nama and rupa, which is associated with kinkhaviyarana visuddhi, purity of escape from doubt, can lead to the causal relationship between consciousness and corporeality, known as piccaya parigha-nana and the stage of dissolution of psycho-physical phenomena, sammasana-nana will ensure good rebirth and the attainment of the lower stage (cula) of sotapanna path, according to the Visuddhi-magga. (4)
The late Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw explained in the discourse on Sallekha sutta as follows. The joyful experience that results from this insight gives rise to abundant faith that in turn ensures rebirth in the higher worlds. In the Alagaddupama sutta of Majjima-nikaya the Buddha says: “All the persons who have faith in me are assured of rebirth in the deva-worlds.” The commentary explains this canonical passage as follows: “This saying of the Buddha refers to those who practise vipassana. These yogis have no fruits of Ariyan Path other than the vipassana practice and faith. They have only faith in the Buddha. While they are striving for vipassana insight, there wells up in them a certain kind of faith in the Buddha and his faith lands them in the deva-world as if it takes them by the hand and elevates them there.” Here the faith referred to in the Pali text is the strong faith that arises again as a result of vipassana insight. This faith usually wells up during the blip of lower level of insight (sammasana nana), but it is not yet manifest until the development of further insights. It shows itself clearly with the emergence of udayabbya insight. According to the commentary, the yogi who has this kind of faith is called cula-sotapanna. This seems to have been quoted by Visuddhimagga. (5)

REFERENCES
1) Chatta Sangayana CD-ROM Version 3. Vipassana Research Institute. Dhammagiri, Igatpuri 422 403, India.
2) English Translation of the Muula Pali Sutta (per kindness of Dr Htin Aung)
3) Commentary on the Sotanugata suttam, enlightenment in the second life. The discourse given in Amarapura, Burma on the 2nd September 1958 by the late Ven. Mogok Sayadaw.
4) The Progress of Insight (Visuddhinana-katha). A Modern Treatise on Buddhist Satipatthana Meditation. Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw, translated by Nyanaponika Thera 1994. ISBN 955-24-0090-2
5) A discourse on Sallekha Sutta. Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw of Burma 1981. Mahasi Vipassana Trust, Yangon, BURMA.
6) Insight levels for self-assessment in the Vipassana Practice, a research into the characteristics of the enlightenment process. Tin Htut, Sheffield, 2000.

Jack
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Jack » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:25 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Jack wrote: Are you aware that there are several translations of this sutta? The one I quoted was by Payutto Bhikkhu. Still another one is by Bhikkhu Bodhi. There are many more. My reading is that all mean the same thing. Going on in the sutta the Buddha when asked about life after death and other metaphysical questions responded that that wasn't what he taught. Then he tells the story of the person who staggered into a village with a poisoned arrow stuck in his back. The villagers gathered round and started discussing who designed the arrow, etc. The Buddha said the important thing is to get the poison out not waste time on meaningless speculation. He said that we all have the poison of suffering in us right now and we should spend our time of getting it out. In another sutta, the Buddha said he only teaches suffering and the alleviation of suffering.

jack
You aren't going to be able to use the suttas to show the Buddha didn't speak of rebirth, when he does in so very many of them. An alternate translation of one sutta is nothing to hang your hat on.
===

I think readers should decide for themseleves the difference between what the Buddha taught to reduce suffering (which He said was the only thing he taught) and what else he mentioned that did not reduce suffering. He certainly mentioned rebirth as he mentioned other cultural artifacts of the time.

The second thing readers should decide is whether the translation I quoted differed in meaning from the other translation quoted.

Up to you. We are all experiment of one.

jack

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cooran
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by cooran » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:37 pm

Hello jack,

Rebirth IS suffering. Again and again and again and again and again.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Nicro
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Nicro » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:21 pm

This is a bit off topic but something I was thinking about today:

Since devas live an extremely long time compared to humans doesn't that mean that there possibly(even likely) are devas who were around in the time of the Buddha and became enlightened? To me, that seems like it would be the best thing about being born in a heaven realm. The chance to learn under an enlightened being who actually learned from the Buddha first hand.

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kirk5a
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by kirk5a » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:31 pm

Jack wrote:
I think readers should decide for themseleves the difference between what the Buddha taught to reduce suffering
Namely, the 8-fold path. And there is the part about wrong view regarding rebirth.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Sidney
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Sidney » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:38 pm

Nicro wrote:This is a bit off topic but something I was thinking about today:

Since devas live an extremely long time compared to humans doesn't that mean that there possibly(even likely) are devas who were around in the time of the Buddha and became enlightened? To me, that seems like it would be the best thing about being born in a heaven realm. The chance to learn under an enlightened being who actually learned from the Buddha first hand.
This is the last straw for us if we do not get enlightened in this life. There are devas and brahmas who are enlightened and teach others in the heavenly realms. But the question is how are we going to ensure a rebirth as a deva?

Jack
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Jack » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 am

kirk5a wrote:
Jack wrote:
I think readers should decide for themseleves the difference between what the Buddha taught to reduce suffering
Namely, the 8-fold path. And there is the part about wrong view regarding rebirth.
================
Kirk,

Is rebirth being part of wrong view found in the sutttas? It might be there but I haven't been able to find it. Please point me in the right direction. The formulations of right view as found in the 8-Fold Path in the references I've found are all similar to this as found in SN 45-8: "And what,monks, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the cause of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way to cessation of suffering: this is called right view."

jack

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mikenz66
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:07 am

Hi Jack,

Kirk is probably referring to:

MN 117 Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.
:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by kirk5a » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:24 am

Yes MN 117 as I quoted earlier. But the Buddha puts an even stronger underline on it in MN 60 Apannaka Sutta: A Safe Bet. A couple points worth considering here: First - the reason "there is no next world" is wrong view, is because there actually is the next world! :smile: And second, the pragmatic argument he makes here, in favor of acting wisely even though one does not know for oneself what is true, of having doubt about what's true on the matter, is surely pretty useful for the many today who are skeptical about rebirth.
A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no next world,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he is says that 'There is no next world,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that 'There is no next world,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

A3. "With regard to this, a wise person considers thus: 'If there is no next world, then — at the break-up of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is the next world, then this venerable person — on the break-up of the body, after death — will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Even if we didn't speak of the next world, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable brahmans & contemplatives, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the wise as a person of bad habits & wrong view: [2] one who holds to a doctrine of non-existence. If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the wise here-&-now, and in that — with the break-up of the body, after death — he will reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Nicro
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Nicro » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:37 am

Sidney wrote:
Nicro wrote:This is a bit off topic but something I was thinking about today:

Since devas live an extremely long time compared to humans doesn't that mean that there possibly(even likely) are devas who were around in the time of the Buddha and became enlightened? To me, that seems like it would be the best thing about being born in a heaven realm. The chance to learn under an enlightened being who actually learned from the Buddha first hand.
This is the last straw for us if we do not get enlightened in this life. There are devas and brahmas who are enlightened and teach others in the heavenly realms. But the question is how are we going to ensure a rebirth as a deva?

I think this is solely a matter of following the path of the Buddha. The Buddha stressed the path more than the goal; because if you follow the correct path, you will end up at the goal.

Jack
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Jack » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:19 am

Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path. Anybody know of any? The references I have found about right view (see below) as part of the 8-Fold Path (ways to alleviate suffering) are much narrower than right view mentioned in other places. It might be that these other places were expanding on the right view as part of the 8-Fold Path. But, maybe not. The definition of the right view found in the 8-fold Path seems very specific.
jack
Jack wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Jack wrote:
I think readers should decide for themseleves the difference between what the Buddha taught to reduce suffering
Namely, the 8-fold path. And there is the part about wrong view regarding rebirth.
================
Kirk,

Is rebirth being part of wrong view found in the sutttas? It might be there but I haven't been able to find it. Please point me in the right direction. The formulations of right view as found in the 8-Fold Path in the references I've found are all similar to this as found in SN 45-8: "And what,monks, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the cause of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way to cessation of suffering: this is called right view."

jack

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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:56 am

Jack wrote:Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path.
The Sutta that Kirk and I have now both quoted is about the 8-fold path:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
:anjali:
Mike

Jack
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Re: Human realm vs. Heaven

Post by Jack » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:45 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Jack wrote:Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path.
The Sutta that Kirk and I have now both quoted is about the 8-fold path:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.
:anjali:
Mike
Thanks for the references. I learned something. Rebirth is certainly part of Right View according to this sutta.

I also believe that a contrary understanding is defined by other suttas. MN 63 which I quoted above, for instance, on getting the poison out now instead of wasting time in idle conversation about the past and future. The last part of the Kalama Sutta for another where the Buddha says if “If there is an after-world (paraloka) and there are fruits of good and bad actions (kamma-phala), he or she can expect to be reborn in a heaven world (sagga), in a state of bliss. If there is no after-world and no fruits of good and bad actions, the person free from greed, hatred, and delusion will still be happy here and now.” So, who cares. (I added this last sentence.) MN2, the Sabbasava Sutta, says speculation on the past and future is unfit for attention Dhammapada Verses 19 and 20 is also useful. There is another sutta which I can’t find that specifically lists all the topics which are a waste of time to discuss. I’m pretty sure that what happens after death is on these topics to be avoided. If anyone knows what sutta this is, please let me know.

Here is a reference from the Mahàtanhàsankhaya Sutta that is relevant..
“Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you say: ‘The Teacher is respected by us. We speak as we do out of respect for the Teacher’?”
“No, bhante.
“Do you speak only of what you have known, seen, and understood for yourselves?”
“Yes, bhante.”
“Good, bhikkhus. So you have been guided by me with this dhamma, which is directly visible (sandiññhika), timeless (akàlika), verifiable (ehipassika), leading onwards (opaneyyika), to be individually experienced by the wise (paccattaü veditabbo vinnuhi). For it was with reference to this that it has been said: ‘Bhikkhus, this dhamma is directly visible, timeless, verifiable, leading onwards, to be individually experienced by the wise.”

I believe Buddhism is a collection of techniques to alleviate suffering. When concepts are mentioned as teachings to reduce suffering (the only thing he said he was teaching) they are guidelines for practice. An example is the Four Noble Truths. The Buddha mentioned a lot of other things which I don’t believe are to reduce suffering and stress and thus not part of this teaching. It's like going to a music teacher who intersperses his teaching with his view of the world, his politics, ghosts he believes in, etc., which has nothing to do with his teaching how to play an instrument.Others have different views on this.

jack

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