Human realm vs. Heaven

[Nicro]

This is a bit off topic but something I was thinking about today:

Since devas live an extremely long time compared to humans doesn't that mean that there possibly(even likely) are devas who were around in the time of the Buddha and became enlightened? To me, that seems like it would be the best thing about being born in a heaven realm. The chance to learn under an enlightened being who actually learned from the Buddha first hand.

This is the last straw for us if we do not get enlightened in this life. There are devas and brahmas who are enlightened and teach others in the heavenly realms. But the question is how are we going to ensure a rebirth as a deva?

I think this is solely a matter of following the path of the Buddha. The Buddha stressed the path more than the goal; because if you follow the correct path, you will end up at the goal.

[Jack]

Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path. Anybody know of any? The references I have found about right view (see below) as part of the 8-Fold Path (ways to alleviate suffering) are much narrower than right view mentioned in other places. It might be that these other places were expanding on the right view as part of the 8-Fold Path. But, maybe not. The definition of the right view found in the 8-fold Path seems very specific.
jack

I think readers should decide for themseleves the difference between what the Buddha taught to reduce suffering

Namely, the 8-fold path. And there is the part about wrong view regarding rebirth.

================
Kirk,

Is rebirth being part of wrong view found in the sutttas? It might be there but I haven't been able to find it. Please point me in the right direction. The formulations of right view as found in the 8-Fold Path in the references I've found are all similar to this as found in SN 45-8: "And what,monks, is right view? Knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the cause of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the way to cessation of suffering: this is called right view."

jack

[mikenz66]

Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path.

The Sutta that Kirk and I have now both quoted is about the 8-fold path:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Mike

[Jack]

Thanks for the quotes about rebirth. They were informative. But, I was looking for a sutta reference that specifically mentioned belief in rebirth as part of the 8-Fold Path.

The Sutta that Kirk and I have now both quoted is about the 8-fold path:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Mike

Thanks for the references. I learned something. Rebirth is certainly part of Right View according to this sutta.

I also believe that a contrary understanding is defined by other suttas. MN 63 which I quoted above, for instance, on getting the poison out now instead of wasting time in idle conversation about the past and future. The last part of the Kalama Sutta for another where the Buddha says if “If there is an after-world (paraloka) and there are fruits of good and bad actions (kamma-phala), he or she can expect to be reborn in a heaven world (sagga), in a state of bliss. If there is no after-world and no fruits of good and bad actions, the person free from greed, hatred, and delusion will still be happy here and now.” So, who cares. (I added this last sentence.) MN2, the Sabbasava Sutta, says speculation on the past and future is unfit for attention Dhammapada Verses 19 and 20 is also useful. There is another sutta which I can’t find that specifically lists all the topics which are a waste of time to discuss. I’m pretty sure that what happens after death is on these topics to be avoided. If anyone knows what sutta this is, please let me know.

Here is a reference from the Mahàtanhàsankhaya Sutta that is relevant..
“Bhikkhus, knowing and seeing in this way, would you say: ‘The Teacher is respected by us. We speak as we do out of respect for the Teacher’?”
“No, bhante.
“Do you speak only of what you have known, seen, and understood for yourselves?”
“Yes, bhante.”
“Good, bhikkhus. So you have been guided by me with this dhamma, which is directly visible (sandiññhika), timeless (akàlika), verifiable (ehipassika), leading onwards (opaneyyika), to be individually experienced by the wise (paccattaü veditabbo vinnuhi). For it was with reference to this that it has been said: ‘Bhikkhus, this dhamma is directly visible, timeless, verifiable, leading onwards, to be individually experienced by the wise.”

I believe Buddhism is a collection of techniques to alleviate suffering. When concepts are mentioned as teachings to reduce suffering (the only thing he said he was teaching) they are guidelines for practice. An example is the Four Noble Truths. The Buddha mentioned a lot of other things which I don’t believe are to reduce suffering and stress and thus not part of this teaching. It's like going to a music teacher who intersperses his teaching with his view of the world, his politics, ghosts he believes in, etc., which has nothing to do with his teaching how to play an instrument.Others have different views on this.

jack