Jechbi wrote:Hi Tilt,That's not a fair assessment of what I've done.tiltbillings wrote:I have presented a textually supported argument. You have done no more than gainsay.
You have not shown otherwise.
Go back and look at the four summaries of the Dhamma as presented in the text. What is their context? Your idea to draw God into the discussion is your idea. You can pretend that you've supported this with texts, but that's not what you've done.
Again, you are doing nothing more than gainsaying. In context of the passage and in broader context of the suttas, reading abh-issaro in terms of a god - a supreme protector - is not out of context. Keeping in mind that the Buddha has addressed god- issara - notions quite directly, what would be the supreme protector of the world? Not a king, not dad, not mom. In life there is no supreme protector to appeal to. The immediate and broader textual context supports my reading.
Hmmmm ... there seems to be a whole lot of atta in your anatta.tiltbillings wrote:The Buddha seemed to have thought otherwise.
There is no argument from you here; just variations of gainsaying.
The Buddha did not advise that we take refuge in kamma. The quotes that you offer need to have their appropriate context and understanding. You said, "Kamma is our refuge." To me that appears to be a statement frought with misunderstanding about what it means to take refuge.
And I have supplied textual context for what I have said. You have offered nothing.
J wrote:Hi Marie,You still have to watch out for that stubborn self-identity-view with regard to right effort.imagemarie wrote:i'm sorry, but what then of "right effort"? That we are able to "(1)prevent unwholesome states of mind from arising,(2) to get rid of
unwholesome states that have already arisen, (3) to produce, to cause to arise, good and wholesome states of mind
not yet arisen, (4) to develop and bring to perfection the good and wholesome states of mind already present".
Is this "energetic will" ( Right Effort - Walpola Rahula), not kamma? And does it not provide a "refuge" then?
Cultivating, by choice, Right View, the precepts, bhavana does not necessitate cultivating a stubborn self-identity-view. The reality also is, however, that until we awaken we are stuck with a self-view, which is why we have the precepts, which is why we have Right View and all the practices that help us see through the self. We cannot will the self away. It comes to an end with insight. Following the Buddha’s path - which is an ongoing moment to moment process of choice - is a way of freeing ourselves from the bondage of the delusion of self. In this process we keep the self in check with the precepts, with mindfulness, with Right View.
You may find it helpful to think in terms of nutriment. What are you feeding this mass of suffering? Also remember that right effort is one of eight spokes in the wheel. Underlying it all is an understanding of anatta.
The there is nothing in what she said that is not feeds the idea of self.