Mind lives on after death?

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Vangelis
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Mind lives on after death?

Post by Vangelis » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:06 am

In one of the suttas, the Buddha rebukes a monk for stating that the mind lives on after death. Anyone know which one it is? I have searched and can't find it.

Thanking you in advance,

Vangelis

pegembara
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Post by pegembara » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:58 am

At one time the Bhagava was staying at the Jetavana monastery of Anathapindika in Savatthi. At that time there arose in Bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, a depraved view1 thus: "As I understand the dhamma (the Teaching) as taught by the Bhagava, it is the same Consciousness which migrates and runs on (from existence to existence) and there is no other besides it (that does so)."

MAHATANHASANKHAYA SUTTA
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:45 pm

no, mind is dependently arisen
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cappuccino
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Re:

Post by cappuccino » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:52 pm

pegembara wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:58 am
"As I understand the dhamma (the Teaching) as taught by the Bhagava, it is the same Consciousness which migrates and runs on (from existence to existence) and there is no other besides it (that does so)."
Consciousness is continuous, yet changing

same Consciousness is wrong

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Re: Re:

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:43 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:52 pm
Consciousness is continuous, yet changing
Do you have some sutta reference which supports your view.
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:00 am

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:23 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:00 am
If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].
Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
I don't see how the sutta reference you brought says anything about annihilation of consciousness. Annihilationism with respect to self means that if one that there is a self and it ends at death then this is annihilation of the self but since there is no self then there is nothing to be annihilated.....as I see it.

Perhaps this sutta reference is more to the point:
MN 38
Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta
the Blessed One said to him, "Is it true, Sāti, that this pernicious view has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"....
.....
"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'?
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cappuccino
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:41 pm

How will you cease to exist? By losing body? By losing self?

Any difference it would make, it has already made.

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:12 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:41 pm
How will you cease to exist? By losing body? By losing self?

Any difference it would make, it has already made.
I think that the point is that you will not cease to exist because there is no you in existence....you can't lose self because there is no self to lose....you can't lose something you don't have......you can't annihilate a self because there is no self to annihilate.
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:18 pm

because you're selfless already,
there should be no expectation of annihilation

I think atheists expect death, yet that will never happen

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by chownah » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:19 am

Thinking about "me dying" gives rise to the delusional self and all the suffering which goes along with it including the suffering which arises from the mistaken view of "me dying".
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cappuccino
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:30 am

you cannot die
because you are not there

your existence is happening without you
and will continue

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by chownah » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:30 am

the path there is but nobody on it
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rightviewftw
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Re: Re:

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:47 am

There is a big difference between a continuous consciousness and a continium of consciousnesses...
Two analogies;
1) The former is like seeing a train passing while the latter is talking about different trains passing one after another.
2) A passing train seen as: a continuous wagon and continium of individual wagons
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DooDoot
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:11 am

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:00 am
[the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]
The above is not from the sutta but added by the translator. The suttas appear to define annihilationism as follows:
Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or a brahmin asserts the following doctrine and view: 'The self, good sir, has material form; it is composed of the four primary elements and originates from father and mother. Since this self, good sir, is annihilated and destroyed with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death, at this point the self is completely annihilated.' In this way some proclaim the annihilation, destruction, and extermination of an existent being.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html

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cappuccino
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by cappuccino » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:16 pm

the translator chose the right meaning

the best possible and only appropriate meaning

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by Amanaki » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:22 pm

I have been wondering about this question too for many years.

Asking what is mind, the answer that arise is. Mind is created by thoughts, you can not point at mind because it does not exist, How can this be you ask?
The you or I are only a human way of thinking.

in understanding of mind after death i ask what is death? only an trasformation of consiousness is the answer that i see.

when all attachments to human life and all that it contain one realize life is only a thought from the true existance that we are representing in human form now.

(my answer is based on my own meditation and cultivation of the wisdom of Sakyamuni. )
If moderator does not accept this for of answer i understand it mut be deleted.

2600htz
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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by 2600htz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:52 pm

Hello:
"And what, bhikkhus, is mind?

"Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention: this is called mind.
Regards.

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:08 pm

I would be wary of separating nāma(translated as "mind" in that exerpt, but arguably "name" is a better translation) from rūpa (form):
And what are name and form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, and focus. This is called name. The four primary elements, and form derived from the four primary elements. This is called form. Such is name and such is form. These are called name and form.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato#sc11
Note that the above does not include viññāṇa (consciousness)
And what is consciousness? There are these six classes of consciousness. Eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness. This is called consciousness.
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/sujato#sc12
Also note that consciousness+name&form is not exactly the same as the five aggregates...

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Re: Mind lives on after death?

Post by perkele » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:30 pm

Amanaki wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:22 pm
Asking what is mind, the answer that arise is. Mind is created by thoughts, you can not point at mind because it does not exist, How can this be you ask?
The you or I are only a human way of thinking.

in understanding of mind after death i ask what is death? only an trasformation of consiousness is the answer that i see.
I think that's a good grasp, but the last sentence could have different interpretations. As I understand it, the problem posed in the sutta by the view of Sati, the fisherman, was that he believed this consciousness to be a solid lasting entity that goes through time unchanged. But according to the Buddha, consciousness is an everchanging, every moment renewing process (so there's no "transformation" of one and the same consciousness, but a complete renewal in every frame). From one moment to the next, no identity of consciousness exists. It's just rapidly quick renewal, so that there appears to be a continuing entity of "I" to be identified with in that rapid succession of consciousnesses (what a silly word :P but... what to say).
when all attachments to human life and all that it contain one realize life is only a thought from the true existance that we are representing in human form now.
I think this might be a wrong understanding, maybe like getting stuck in the sphere of infinitude of consciousness and a universal "all-being" or "world soul", like "we are all one" or something like that? or maybe I just misunderstood.
There was a great talk by Ayya Khema (link to topic, link to talk; 53:42 onwards, more to the point at 55:00) mentioned here recently who touched (but only very lightly) on this as well. The sphere of infinitude of consciousness has to be transcended as well. But it's a very abstract topic. I don't know if I have really understood it actually.

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