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Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:27 pm
by Sacha G
Hi
As I understand vipassana, it's a recognition of the three characteristics within the compounded phenomena. Now this is based on observation of the arising and vanishing of the five aggregates. And this allows to obtain right view.
But, I don't see any condition between this and the fact of understanding paticcasamuppada, all the more as the classical explanation runs on 3 lives, and that this cannot be observed, unless you get the divine eye. :coffee:
Therefore I would like to know if you have any idea about this?
Thanx
Sacha

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:29 pm
by Sacha G
Sorry I meant * connexion, not condition. :|

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:15 pm
by Ceisiwr
For the three lives answer I do not know


But for the in the moment answer, I can refer you to this http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... uppada.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:23 pm
by PeterB
As Craig says its not about the three lives hypothesis directly. Although Vipassana certainly does not deny the three lives view. Rather it is saying that what is germaine to past present and future can be found right here, with proper instruction and the right context.

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:30 pm
by pegembara
Svakkato Bhagavata Dhammo (well expounded is the Exalted One’s Dhamma)
Sanditthiko (to be seen here and now)
Akaliko (not delayed in time)
Ehipassiko ( (inviting one to) come and see)
Opanayiko (leading inwards)
Paccatam Veditabbo Vinnuhiti (to be seen by each wise man for himself)

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:13 pm
by Sacha G
Thank you for your answers already!
Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.
:juggling:
Thank U
Sacha

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:15 pm
by householder
Sacha G wrote:Thank you for your answers already!
Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.
:juggling:
Thank U
Sacha
I'm currently reading the Nibbana Sermons, having read Nanvira's 'Notes on Dhamma' in relation to paticcasmuppada, and will read the Buddhadasa article above, and will thus also be very interested in replies to Sacha's question above.

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:23 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sacha,

(Note: this post was made whilst this topic was still in the Classical Theravada section)
Sacha G wrote:Actually I was wondering how the instructions on satipatthana (which are sufficient to bring to right view, I assume) fit with the exposition of paticcasamuppada, even if this paticcasamuppada is interpreted as showing what's happening in this very life, or even this very instant.
It is often said that the 'three lives' are comparable, because this life's past life, was the past life's present life, and so on. By that argument, if you directly know the links as they pertain to one "life", you'll know them all.

What might complicate that potentially are knowing the links that cross consecutive lifetimes, to which end I'd recommend you find one of those elaborate circular diagrams that shows the past and present causes and effects, as understood in the Mahavihara tradition, like this slightly ungainly one...

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:32 am
by alan
Hi Sacha.
One question at a time. please!
Arising and passing away, or fading, might be a better way of understanding than using the word "vanishing". There is a subtle difference.
Although I know smart people who would argue otherwise, I've dropped the 3 lives idea. It just seems overly complex and not of immediate use.
One last point--the "3 characteristics" have been elevated to a high status in Vipassana. This might not correspond directly to some of the basic suttas. But that is enough for now.

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:35 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Just a quick reminder that in the Classical Mahavihara section, the Tipitaka and associated commentaries are considered definitive for the purposes of discussion.

Thanks for your understanding.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:50 am
by alan
Oh, sorry.
Sacha might get a more satisfying response in another forum where her question(s) can be discussed freely.

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:30 pm
by Sacha G
Hi, a small detail which has nothing to do, but Sacha's a male name ;)
Apart from that, if someone knows how to redirect this post to a more appropriate freedom (i.e allowing the interpretation within one lifetime of paticcasamuppada), it'd be nice!
:bow:

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:32 pm
by Sacha G
I meant * thread, not "freedom" :sage:
Sacha

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:39 pm
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Topic moved to General Theravada in accord with OP's request.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Vipassana and the 12 links

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:46 pm
by householder
I have a two pronged question which I'd be grateful for replies on in relation to this.

First, in respect of the 'three lives' approach, is this in accordance with the dhamma being akaliko?

As an extension of the first part of the question above, how (if at all) does the below sutta have any bearing?
Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there
are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent
people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if
two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In
the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes
consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes
name-&-form. SN 12.67
I'm quite uncertain and confused.

If the answer to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, then how, in the present, do we see the past and future through vipassana? Is that possible, or am I missing something here?

Thanks.