Actors go to Hell?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:19 am

rowyourboat wrote:I'm just surprised that lobha, Sosa, moha (greed, aversion, delusion) as the roots of karma, has not been clearly stated in this thread. If anyone acts out of these, bad karma results, in their absence good karma results. All we need to do in doubtful situations is to consider which of these karmic roots gave rise to performing a certain act.
As if that is at all easy to tell.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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legolas
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by legolas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:18 am

Wherever Laurel & Hardy have ended up, they will take with them a shed load of merit for bringing joy & laughter (gentle) to the world. Perhaps there are many wrong livliehoods but we can all see the light before its to late (see Angulimala) and I am sure there are varying degrees within professions. Maybe the joy that is brought to the world by actors and comedians is of a sensual nature, but maybe if it is done without exciting the baser passions it is not all bad.

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Ben
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by Ben » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:23 am

legolas wrote:Wherever Laurel & Hardy have ended up, they will take with them a shed load of merit for bringing joy & laughter (gentle) to the world. Perhaps there are many wrong livliehoods but we can all see the light before its to late (see Angulimala) and I am sure there are varying degrees within professions. Maybe the joy that is brought to the world by actors and comedians is of a sensual nature, but maybe if it is done without exciting the baser passions it is not all bad.
And you have this on some authority?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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phil
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by phil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:42 am

pilgrim wrote:How about other occupations like the advertising industry? isn't that worse as it creates desire when there was none? Surely even the during the Buddha's time there were jobs equivalent to advertising like when a shopkeeper calls out the merits of his wares,..
If I'm not mistaken, the Samyutta in question lays out various occupations or ways of life and according hells they lead to. Let me get my book...

....no, it's not that one. It's somewhere else. If I recall correctly beings are witnessed as emerging from various hells, having earned their way out, perhaps, but they are still afflicted in ways that accord with the ways of life that led to the hells. I remember (as anyone will who read the sutta!) one poor fellow with gigantic testicles he has to drag around, I don't recall if he was a lecher or a pimp or what, and forgive me if the giant testicles are just a figment of my feverish imagination! In any case, I think there were occupations mentionned in that series of suttas, perhaps someone can lead us to them.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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legolas
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by legolas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:55 am

Ben wrote:
legolas wrote:Wherever Laurel & Hardy have ended up, they will take with them a shed load of merit for bringing joy & laughter (gentle) to the world. Perhaps there are many wrong livliehoods but we can all see the light before its to late (see Angulimala) and I am sure there are varying degrees within professions. Maybe the joy that is brought to the world by actors and comedians is of a sensual nature, but maybe if it is done without exciting the baser passions it is not all bad.
And you have this on some authority?
What on earth do you mean. I was quite clearly expressing a personal view. The words "maybe" and "perhaps" might give a clue. As for acquiring "a shed load of merit" I am afraid I have no authority - please forgive me.

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phil
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by phil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:I'm just surprised that lobha, Sosa, moha (greed, aversion, delusion) as the roots of karma, has not been clearly stated in this thread. If anyone acts out of these, bad karma results, in their absence good karma results. All we need to do in doubtful situations is to consider which of these karmic roots gave rise to performing a certain act.
As if that is at all easy to tell.
I think it is easy to make correct assumptions when deeds that are bad in the conventional sense are involved though people can make good cases for rare cases of kusala potential behind lying, killing etc. It seems to me the unwholesome deed itself comes close enough to telling us what roots are involved, exceptions are outliers. As for wholesome deeds, much harder to know when they are tainted by akusala in many ways.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:21 am

phil wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:I'm just surprised that lobha, Sosa, moha (greed, aversion, delusion) as the roots of karma, has not been clearly stated in this thread. If anyone acts out of these, bad karma results, in their absence good karma results. All we need to do in doubtful situations is to consider which of these karmic roots gave rise to performing a certain act.
As if that is at all easy to tell.
I think it is easy to make correct assumptions when deeds that are bad in the conventional sense are involved though people can make good cases for rare cases of kusala potential behind lying, killing etc. It seems to me the unwholesome deed itself comes close enough to telling us what roots are involved, exceptions are outliers. As for wholesome deeds, much harder to know when they are tainted by akusala in many ways.
You pretty much make my point.

But actors going to hell just by being actors? Probably not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

PeterB
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by PeterB » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:35 am

I rather suspect not too. How can we compare what were being described as "actors" in the Buddhas day with profession that today includes both the most narcissistic AND the most philanthropic of people ? ( and lots of phoney Buddhists AND some genuine ones )
That includes people living in sensual indulgence AND people who devote their time to entertaining sick kids ?

If they do go to hell, do you think they stand in the middle of the hellish throng gazing skyward with the back of their hand against their brow, as they strike a heroic pose ?

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phil
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by phil » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:00 am

Well, we can take it as a useful reminder that there is great potential for harmfulness everytime we interact with people, in some professions more than others. Those of us who deal with clients/patients/students/subordinate co-workers have to be particularly careful when there is a relationship akin to willful participation-seeker/willing participant, and we all know that those situations arise even if only in idle chatter (which is of course akusala kamma patha, like it or not.) There are all sorts of situations in life when we act in a way to try to motivate or excite or entertain people in harmful ways. This sutta is a wakeup call, many thanks to whoever posted it.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

rowyourboat
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by rowyourboat » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:50 am

Hi Tilt,Phil,

I didn't say it was easy, but it does serve as basic teaching which helps us out of dogmatic assertions that actors (we don't even know if we are talking about the same thing as what the Buddha was talking about) or any other category is 'right' or wrong'. The spirit of the dhamma is not that simplistic- it is hard to see, sublime, deep...and certainly need thinking and application. It is not a revealed religion but rather a realised one, someone said. So to say a certain profession or method or lineage is good or bad is to miss the point. It is important to be 'introspective' -or in dhamma terms, be mindful of our own minds when we perform a certain act or do a certain meditation- what is happening in my mind when I do it - is it helpful or harmful or just not useful?

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by PeterB » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:39 pm

:goodpost:

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phil
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by phil » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:25 am

rowyourboat wrote: So to say a certain profession or method or lineage is good or bad is to miss the point. It is important to be 'introspective' -or in dhamma terms, be mindful of our own minds when we perform a certain act or do a certain meditation- what is happening in my mind when I do it - is it helpful or harmful or just not useful.


Absolutely, the test of the Rahula sutta. But it is true that certain professions and certain conventional situations have implicit danger. The kind of mindfulness you are talking about may on occasion arise during busy days but as we all know (I assume!) more often than not it doesn't. So it seems a good idea to lay out conventional paramaters ahead of time. So for example, when I know that I will be teaching certain female students on their own (I teach English conversation to adults) I am aware that the conventional situation is rife with dangerous potential (that my boundless lust will make her uncomfortable or subtly scared, Lord knows that in my case their is not much danger of stirring desire in her!) and approach it accordingly. Awareness of mind states may also arise and condition wise abstention from unwholesome, discomforting energy towards her, but that is not to be counted on. First we must protect ourselves and others in conventional ways, that's the way I see it. So I like these suttas that point out particular dangers in particular occupations. But yes, it must eventually come down to what you write nicely about above. So perhaps you're wondering how I would protect myself and her in "conventional" ways. Good question. I guess I don't. It *does* all come down to mind states. So I agree with you. So there! :smile:

By the way, Matheesha, I often remember when you here or elsewhere asked about drinking alchohol, if we drink one drink with mindfulness because of a social need in some situation, what is the danger. That is a good example of what I was trying to get at above. Just not drinking plain and simple, no matter what, that is the way to go rather than counting on awareness of mind states to protect us. That certain act of drinking alcohol, it must be avoided, no matter what, plain and simple. That's the way this formerly booze loving guy feels now. Maybe completely off topic, maybe not.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

rowyourboat
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:57 am

Hi Phil,

Agreed! I remember reading a sutta where the Buddha categorises keeping precepts under purifying the mind. It surprised me at the time but it is clear that precepts is yet another method (clunky as it is) to control gross mental states. After all, the mind is the forerunner to all things. We may not be able to access the mind directly when we start practice- therefore we can set down sone rules to begin with, which will be helpful to sone degree in keeping our mind under some degree of control, (via controlling speech and action).

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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suriyopama
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by suriyopama » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:17 am

There are even Buddhist actors such as Richard Gere, and Keanu Reeves, who starred in "Little Buddha".
I honestly can't fathom think they will end up in hell for this. .
What do you think?
Maybe for this:


Feel the urge to buy a Ford Lancia? ;)

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octathlon
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Re: Actors go to Hell?

Post by octathlon » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:28 am

That's definitely not good, on several levels.

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