Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.
It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.
tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Coinsciousness conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
Yes.
tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.
No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

Does the cessation of a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.
Clearly this is so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Are we going to play nice here? The only text I copied was the first 8 links of the paticasamuppada formula in the BUDDHIST DICTIONARY. Past life or present life, it is all the same.
It's not a case of nice or not-nice... it's just that you didn't think my question was worthy of contemplation. Given that, it's not worth discussing further, unless you were to reconsider and give the question serious consideration.
I thought I gave it an answer that was considered. It was just a couple a paragraphs down.
tiltbillings wrote:I am not worried about physiology. For you "cease" seems to mean obliterated. Probably not, given that a living arahant thinks, perceives, talks, remembers, etc. No need to kill off these functions, when simply no longer investing in thems as aspects of a self will do just fine.
No - once again, you do not see the nuances of what I am saying. You believe I intend "obliterated" or "kill off"... which, would mean "exists" and then "does not exist" but I make neither of those statements. Surely you must see the ontological/realist assumptions underpinning any phenomenon which could be said to be "obliterated" or "kill[ed] off"?
You are assuming ontology here. I am not. First of all we are stuck with figurative speech. You'll need to explain what you mean by cease. I have already explained what I mean by it, but what you mean is probably the function of what follows:
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler). Does ceasing to observe a phenomenon "kill off" or "obliterate" anything? No, it just means it is no longer observed. It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I believe our point of difference lies in different understandings of the English word "conditioning" and the Pali word "sankhara" as they pertain to experience.
I have no idea what your position on this is.
Clearly this is so.
And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?
tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
I will persist in attempting to clarify my position as long as you persist in attempting to understand it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:I don't think it is a matter of "ceasing to observe" it. It is a matter of no longer identifying with it by seeing it for what it is, which seems to be what the Mara/arahant/Buddha stories are about.
And what is "it"? And does the "it" exist independently of being observed?
To quote:
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler) . . . It if is not observed, it is not experienced.
There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.
tiltbillings wrote:And clearly you are not going to help in this matter?
I will persist in attempting to clarify my position and long as you persist in attempting to understand it.
But are you trying to understand my position?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:There is no "independently." "It" is what you seem to think ceases by no longer observing it.
Sankhata dhamma (i.e. any aspect of samsaric/conditioned existence), remembering that "No [dhamma] is a [dhamma], until it is an observed [dhamma]"
tiltbillings wrote:But are you trying to understand my position?
I believe I've understood your position since before we even started this topic, but I have been open throughout to advances upon it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Sylvester »

retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does consciousness cease, literally with the cessation of ignorance in the living arahant?
Conditioned consciousness does - beyond that, it's not for me to say.
sankhara:
(1) bodily function, i.e. in-and-out-breathing (e.g. M.10),
(2) verbal function, i.e. thought-conception and discursive thinking,
(3) mental-function, i.e. feeling and perception (e.g. M.44).

Do these things literally cease, no longer to function in the living arahant?
Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than "function", that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...

Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (not being loka) is not dependent upon avijja.

(I have no doubt that will seem unnecessarily oblique, but it is what it is... "realism" as defined earlier included "objectively existing world... not dependent on our minds", and to me, "physiological functions" falls into that category, hence why I asked if you could reframe your question).

Oh, no no no! Pls don't hold this view. How will the living Arahant function without MN 44's sankharas? Do note that MN 44 explicitly addresses the arising of the cittasankhara for those arising from Nirodha Sammapatti, which is accessible only to Anagamis and Arahants.

Were you perhaps thinking that these sankharas in an Arahant might be unconditioned, in the same way as conditioned consciousness ceases for an Arahant in your view?

Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"? IMHO, this is a unicorn born from Ven Nanananda's unfortunate translations. Ven N translates "tadappatittham vinnanam" in SN 22.53 as "that unestablished consciousness...". Even Ven Thanissaro opts for the much saner translation of "consciousness, thus not having landed..." and BB renders it as "with consciousness unestablished...".

Ven N finds more support for this unicorn in SN 4.23 where he translates -
Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena Godhiko kulaputto parinibbuto.

"O! monks, the clansman Godhika passed away with an unestablished consciousness:

Nibbana Sermons 3
IMHO, this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist, whether conditioned or unconditioned. The translation totally ignores the context to which the Buddha gave the above answer -
“Eso kho, bhikkhave, māro pāpimā godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṃ samanvesati— ‘kattha godhikassa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṃ patiṭṭhitan’ti? Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena godhiko kulaputto parinibbuto”ti.

That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Godhika, wondering " Where now has the consciousness of the clansman been established?" However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Godhika has attained final Nibbana.
Like those other mystical mumbo jumbo translations of that other unicorn "viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ", the Canon's scanty references to "consciousness not being established" has been reified into an "unestablished consciousness".

I've searched the Canon, and I can't seem to find any context in which consciousness is not estasblished, except in the context of Parinibbana. So, even if this unicorn exists, it does not seem relevant to an living Arahant.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Oh, no no no! Pls don't hold this view. How will the living Arahant function without MN 44's sankharas? Do note that MN 44 explicitly addresses the arising of the cittasankhara for those arising from Nirodha Sammapatti, which is accessible only to Anagamis and Arahants. Were you perhaps thinking that these sankharas in an Arahant might be unconditioned, in the same way as conditioned consciousness ceases for an Arahant in your view?
Implicit in your objection is the assumption that discussion of the experience of the arahant is to be included as a subject within the sutta to that point.

On the other hand, I believe it only applies to the tail end portion, which is an abbreviated form of what is known loosely as "transcendental dependent origination"...
"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"

"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."

"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"

"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."

"What lies on the other side of release?"

"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."

"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."
Until that point of the sutta, it is referring to either a puthujjana or sekha, who has yet to attain to the "other side of ignorance". It is common for suttas to start from 'lesser' experience, and ramp up until they conclude with the 'sublime'.

As Venerable Nanavira says in his note on dependent origination. - http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=62" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sankhārā in the usual twelve-factored paticcasamuppāda series can include such a mixed collection of things as intentions of merit, demerit, and imperturbability, in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling. These things, one and all, are things that other things depend on, and as such are sankhārā of one kind or another; and so long as there are sankhārā of any kind at all there is viññāna and everything dependent upon viññāna, in other words there is paticcasamuppāda.
I assume you agree paticcasamuppāda does not apply to arahants?
Might you perhaps be thinking of Geoff's "unestablished consciousness"?
Not particularly... though trying to play me off against either Geoff or venerable Nanananda, isn't likely to be particularly successful as a means of convincing me of anything.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Nyana »

Sylvester wrote:this is a very poor attempt to reify something that does not exist
The only one I see here who is attempting to reify anything is you with your penchant for jumping to fallacious conclusions. Do you not know of any other way to communicate besides the very lame tactic of reduction to the absurd and the equally lame tactic of the fallacy of distraction? Life is far too short to engage in such bullshit games.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

Play nice, gentlmen, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:Is it possible to reframe your question using a term other than "function", that pertains directly to experience? In the meantime, I'll answer as best as I can...

Yes, kāyasankhāro, vacīsankhāro and cittasankhāro all cease for the arahant... but that is not to say that what you seem to mean by them as physiological "functions" ceases. On matters of physiology I do not wish to speculate because physiology (not being loka) is not dependent upon avijja.
I'm sorry, but do you know Rahogata-sutta (SN 36.11)? It clearly explains what ceases when… There's no need for creativity here.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:I'm sorry, but do you know Rahogata-sutta (SN 36.11)? It clearly explains what ceases when… There's no need for creativity here.
No need to be sorry, Piotr.

As the sutta says...
SN 36.11 wrote:"There are, monk, these six quietenings. In him who has attained the first absorption, speech is quietened. Having attained the second absorption, thought-conception and discursive thinking are quietened. Having attained the third absorption, rapture is quietened. Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation is quietened. Having attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling are quietened. In a taint-free monk greed is quietened, hatred is quietened, delusion is quietened."
... and as quoted in my last posting...
Nanavira Thera wrote:Sankhārā in the usual twelve-factored paticcasamuppāda series can include such a mixed collection of things as intentions of merit, demerit, and imperturbability, in-&-out-breaths, thinking-&-pondering, and perception and feeling. These things, one and all, are things that other things depend on, and as such are sankhārā of one kind or another; and so long as there are sankhārā of any kind at all there is viññāna and everything dependent upon viññāna, in other words there is paticcasamuppāda.
I assume you agree paticcasamuppāda does not apply to arahants?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by piotr »

Hi Retrofuturist,

The sutta says that in-and-outbreathing ceases in 4th jhāna. You've said that this saṅkhāra ceases for arahant. Are you saying that arahants abide in 4th jhāna all the time?
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:The sutta says that in-and-outbreathing ceases in 4th jhāna.
It does.
piotr wrote:You've said that this saṅkhāra ceases for arahant.
Yes.
piotr wrote:Are you saying that arahants abide on 4th jhāna all the time?
No. Neither did I claim that the cessation of kāyasankhāro is the cause for the attainment of the 4th jhana.

Did all arahants attain to the 4th jhana? No.
Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
What does that tell you?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by piotr »

Hi retrofuturist

That's why I've mentioned your creativty. I find it useless in light of Rahogata-sutta.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Did all arahants bring a cessation to sankhara through the cessation of avijja? Yes.
You mean they do not see it any more.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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