Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:08 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, essentially, you are saying that the Buddha felt no need to speak at a level appropriate to an arahant.
Whilst under the hail of projectiles is hardly the environment for a suitably nuanced discussion. I mean, he calls him "brahman"... another word with both a conventional meaning and a nuanced Dhamma meaning. The phrase, as translated, is far more up for interpretation than you seem to infer.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:13 am

Greetings acinteyyo,
acinteyyo wrote:The Buddha's teaching on kamma simply is that kamma bears fruits.
...
But a particular person possibly draws for example hate of locals as a fruit of action. Don't you think?
I think that's over-simplifying it. What you speak here is nothing other than conventional cause and effect... hardly a radical new and profound teaching.
acinteyyo wrote:The precise working "behind the scenes" (if there is any "behind" at all) is "acinteyya" - unthinkable
The precise explanatory workings (such as that what the commentators happen to venture in their writings), sure... I'd agree with you on that.

However, the Buddha taught that "Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known." (AN 6.63)

Therefore, the only reason anything would be "behind the scenes", would be because it remains obscured by lack of penetrative insight (i.e. the "cessation of kamma" which should be known, is not). To wipe our hands of any responsibility of understanding kamma and its fruit beyond it being some generic "law of cause and effect" seems to miss the point of the above sutta, or even frankly, the need for the Buddha to teach it in the first place.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:So, essentially, you are saying that the Buddha felt no need to speak at a level appropriate to an arahant.
While under the hail of projectiles is hardly the environment for a suitably nuanced discussion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Except, the hail of projectiles was over; Ven Angulimala went to the Buddha after the fact. You are working really hard to to try to dismiss this text. The production of kamma is done for Angulimala; however, the fruit of past actions seems to linger.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:25 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:however, the fruit of past actions seems to linger.
Technically, according to the Buddha's teachings on kamma, that cetana results in vipaka? Or conventionally, according to the common maxim a child could understand, that actions have consequences?

Which are you stating?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:However, the Buddha taught that "Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known." (AN 6.63)
The cessation of kamma is action no longer driven by greed, hatred and delusion, but do show us that one, as an arahant, is totally free of the results of past action. Results. There is nothing in what you have quoted that states the results of all past action (kamma) has ceased.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:30 am

Greetings Tilt,

I'm still not clear on whether you're speaking technically about...

i) kamma(cetana)/vipaka
ii) "cause and effect"

Hence, I can't respond (yet)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:however, the fruit of past actions seems to linger.
Technically, according to the Buddha's teachings on kamma, that cetana results in vipaka? Or conventionally, according to the common maxim a child could understand, that actions have consequences?

Which are you stating?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Kamma is the Pali word for action. What I do based upon my cetana has consequences.

A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (karma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I'm still not clear on whether you're speaking technically about...

i) kamma(cetana)/vipaka
ii) "cause and effect"

Hence, I can't respond (yet)

Metta,
Retro. :)
You are taking kamma and vipaka as equivalent?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:48 am

retrofuturist wrote:[ NOTE: Split from http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.
Where does it say here that vipaka IS suffering?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:51 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:You are taking kamma and vipaka as equivalent?
No, I'm regarding them as a pair, not as synonymous terms.
tiltbillings wrote:Kamma is the Pali word for action.
Yes.
tiltbillings wrote:What I do based upon my cetana has consequences.
That still doesn't answer the question.... conventional consequences, or technical vipaka consequences?

Let us take the example of unknowingly stepping on a slug.

It is an action (walking) and it has consequences (mooshy slug, sloppy sole of the shoe).

The walking was volitional - you chose to walk.

What do you say is the "fruit" in this situation... is it the mooshy slug and soggy sole, or is it nothing, because there was no intention to harm (i.e. no unwholesome mindstate)?

If you say the former, you're speaking conventionally - if you say the latter, you're speaking in the Dhammic sense.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16270
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:53 am

Hi Retro,

I really struggle to follow your arguments about kamma and loka.
retrofuturist wrote: I think the emphasis ought to be on vipaka being within loka, not outside loka... and clods, sticks, comets and such aren't within loka, as loka is defined by the Buddha. Only aggregates (which disintegrate) and senses (which disintegrate) are within loka.
So there is a world/all outside that which we experience? Are the clods not part of our experience?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Insofar as it disintegrates,[2] monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.
"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate...
...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas.
:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8504
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by cooran » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:02 am

retrofuturist wrote: Let us take the example of unknowingly stepping on a slug.

It is an action (walking) and it has consequences (mooshy slug, sloppy sole of the shoe).

The walking was volitional - you chose to walk.

What do you say is the "fruit" in this situation... is it the mooshy slug and soggy sole, or is it nothing, because there was no intention to harm (i.e. no unwholesome mindstate)?

If you say the former, you're speaking conventionally - if you say the latter, you're speaking in the Dhammic sense.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hello Retro,

I don't think so.

Unintentional action is not kamma. If we accidently step on some ants while walking down the street, that is not the kamma of taking life, for there was no intention to kill. If we speak some statement believing it to be true and it turns out to be false, this is not the kamma of lying, for there is no intention of deceiving.
On Kamma - by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.theravada.ca/readings/64-que ... bodhi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:20 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.
Where does it say here that vipaka IS suffering?[/quote]

I didn't say the word "is".... I was abbreviating this sequence...
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
.... where that which comes after the kamma/cetana/sankhara, is the experienced resultant of said kamma/cetana/sankhara.

From the cessation of fabrications (sankhara/cetana/kamma), comes the cessation of suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:22 am

Greetings Cooran,

You might not realise it, but we're actually in agreement.... vipaka isn't just "what happens after we kill something" (i.e. soggy shoes, squashed slug), it's the experienced resultant of a volitional action.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19956
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:26 am

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:So there is a world/all outside that which we experience? Are the clods not part of our experience?
The five aggregates are our experience. The six senses are our experience.

Where do clods fit in to that? The feel of clods, the taste of clods, the smell of clods, the smell of clods.... but not the clods, in and of themselves, independent of receiving consciousness.

Angulimala experienced feeling (of clod, of cuts)... not "clod" itself.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], justindesilva, Majestic-12 [Bot], robertk, Sam Vara, TRobinson465 and 79 guests