Not it is not buddhism nor is it "best science". I think that buddhism and best science agree that the question of free will or not is beyond range.
chownah
Not it is not buddhism nor is it "best science". I think that buddhism and best science agree that the question of free will or not is beyond range.
Can you link to any articles that support your position? Here's one that supports my position that "best science" shows that free will does not exist:
Sure, I could link to a site that talks about right effort as taught by the buddha. If there was no free will then the buddha would not stress the importance of effort.mal4mac wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:49 pmCan you link to any articles that support your position? Here's one that supports my position that "best science" shows that free will does not exist:
"In recent decades, research on the inner workings of the brain has helped to resolve the nature-nurture debate—and has dealt a further blow to the idea of free will. Brain scanners have enabled us to peer inside a living person’s skull, revealing intricate networks of neurons and allowing scientists to reach broad agreement that these networks are shaped by both genes and environment. But there is also agreement in the scientific community that the firing of neurons determines not just some or most but all of our thoughts, hopes, memories, and dreams."
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2016/05/ ... free-will/
There is a worry, of course, the criminals can make use of this observation:
"The number of court cases, for example, that use evidence from neuroscience has more than doubled in the past decade—mostly in the context of defendants arguing that their brain made them do it. "
But I think it would be stupid to try and get scientists to believe in free will because of these criminals. The way round this, seems to me, to not allow the criminals to use this excuse. Lock 'em up anyway if it helps determine that they don't perform criminal acts again.
A choice of holiday destination is one example. On paper somebody could go pretty much anywhere, but for somebody who doesn't like flying and doesn't have much money, the options would be severely limited.chownah wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:04 pmCan you explain what you mean by "practically speaking" when speaking about our choices? I'm asking because for me if I think "are my choices often quite limited practically speaking" the answer I come up with is definitely "no"......so I think that I must be using a different definition for "practically speaking" than you are.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 am
I think our choices are often quite limited practically speaking, because they depend on our current circumstances, our previous experience, our personality traits, and so on.
chownah
I guess the difference between our outlooks is the glass half empty vs. glass half full. You seem to view it like since our choices are not unlimited then they are quite limited. My view is more like I know I can't do everything but there are still a huge number of possibilities to choose from.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:15 amA choice of holiday destination is one example. On paper somebody could go pretty much anywhere, but for somebody who doesn't like flying and doesn't have much money, the options would be severely limited.chownah wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:04 pmCan you explain what you mean by "practically speaking" when speaking about our choices? I'm asking because for me if I think "are my choices often quite limited practically speaking" the answer I come up with is definitely "no"......so I think that I must be using a different definition for "practically speaking" than you are.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:24 am
I think our choices are often quite limited practically speaking, because they depend on our current circumstances, our previous experience, our personality traits, and so on.
chownah
Determinism theory (if you are referring to that) is much more than that. It's not about having limited options. According to determinism, there are no options. That we have many options available is an illusion, according to determinism. Place 5 toys in front of you and there is no choice, it is already determined, already known which one you will pick up. It is determined by genes and biology, your past actions (which were also pre-determined and set) not any free will or anything else, according to determinism.chownah wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:50 am About the holiday destination directly: If one has little money one can have a stay at home holiday and in place of "destination" one can have "activities". Could be watching lots of movies and then the choice of movies is huge....it could be to go to a penny arcade and then you would have to decide which one to go to. You could go to a park (which one?) and have a picnic (make and take food to save money or buy some nice take out?) and invite some friends (or not), fly a kite (or not) (or two), swim (or not) at the park or find a park near a swimming pool, rent some skates (or not)....etc. the possibilities are pretty large really......but of course any finite amount of possibilities will seem quite limited when compared to considering infinite possibilities.
to me things are more complicated now. It was a perfect definition previously. Now we have to distinguish, yes every cause has an effect, and this follow physical rules that can be described. But, predicting is impossible because it would imply information that is not possible to have. It is not only that computers are too small, but more than it is not possible to observe everything.Potentially, according to determinism, if some 'super-computer' could be made which could analyze the DNA, the genes of everyone, all future weather events, then this super computer could accurately predict who the U.S. president will be 40 years from now and virtually everything else.
I was refering to spiny normans post:DNS wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:33 pmDeterminism theory (if you are referring to that)chownah wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:50 am About the holiday destination directly: If one has little money one can have a stay at home holiday and in place of "destination" one can have "activities". Could be watching lots of movies and then the choice of movies is huge....it could be to go to a penny arcade and then you would have to decide which one to go to. You could go to a park (which one?) and have a picnic (make and take food to save money or buy some nice take out?) and invite some friends (or not), fly a kite (or not) (or two), swim (or not) at the park or find a park near a swimming pool, rent some skates (or not)....etc. the possibilities are pretty large really......but of course any finite amount of possibilities will seem quite limited when compared to considering infinite possibilities.
So, you can decide whether "our choices are often quite limited practically speaking" is talking about determinism theory or not. I don't know because I don't follow the theoretics of determism to any significant degree because it is purely speculative and I prefer to spend my time considering things with some grounding in experiential reality.I think our choices are often quite limited practically speaking, because they depend on our current circumstances, our previous experience, our personality traits, and so on.
Ceisiwr » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:14 pmThere is no free will because everything has a cause.
Bhikkhu Pesala:Of course we have free will. We have no choice.
"One can choose to engage in fruitless debate, or one can choose to meditate, observing mental and physical phenomena to understand their dependent arising."