American Buddhist Forest Tradition

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mirco
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by mirco » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:36 pm

PeterB wrote:Does it mean for example that those who have their origin outside of the USA will be excluded ? Or What ?
Certainly not. No one will be excluded.

I understand it thus: The culturale roots of the teacher are american.

No rituals and rites from asia, as you can often find in Theravadan Thai, Sri Lankan, etc. temples and monasteries.

The point is, I think, that you can find a lot of Buddhist places where there are recitations and rites connected to that very culture the founders come from. Also having the lays reciting stuff in Pali without explaining is quite common, as I heard.

They also have a trining program for foreign monks at the Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center, where tey can learn how to teach Dhamma in that easy language instead of using e.g. Pali terms and not knowing how to explain it in english, because they don't know tha language that well.

And this is the difference: plain english only, easy to understand wording, nothing will disappear in some unexplained exotic mist.

Metta, always,
:) Mirco
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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mirco
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by mirco » Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:24 pm

I got an really helpfull reminder from a friend on this theme:

"Whatever the pros & cons of the monk in question, do not expect to change anyones mind or even raise interest.
Also dont try using reasoned arguments, it will all end in tears."


Yeahhh... tend to forget about the wise things.

Instead I am busy with creating kamma by 7.craving, 8.clinging, 9.my habitual tendencies (becoming) and 10.the birth of verbal action.

Be well
:) Mirco
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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Goedert
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Goedert » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:49 pm

mirco wrote: "Whatever the pros & cons of the monk in question, do not expect to change anyones mind or even raise interest.
Also dont try using reasoned arguments, it will all end in tears."
Such great wise words!
:bow:

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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:55 pm

Goedert wrote:
mirco wrote: "Whatever the pros & cons of the monk in question, do not expect to change anyones mind or even raise interest.
Also dont try using reasoned arguments, it will all end in tears."
Such great wise words!
Wise words? More a sad commentary on the emotional investment people are capable of making in another human being without due consideration, which is why so many of us get sucked into unwise associations with questionable teachers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:55 pm

Hi Mirco,
mirco wrote:I got an really helpfull reminder from a friend on this theme:

"Whatever the pros & cons of the monk in question, do not expect to change anyones mind or even raise interest.
Also dont try using reasoned arguments, it will all end in tears."
I don't see any problem in pointing out the teachings of one's favourite teachers. The expositions of the Dhamma from particular teachers is particularly helpful to particular students.

The problem that can arise is insisting that one's favourite modern teacher has explained it all perfectly, and everyone else is wrong. Which seems to me to be rather unlikely, no matter who one's favourite modern teacher is...

MN 95 Canki Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

"If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
:anjali:
Mike

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Goedert
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Goedert » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:11 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Goedert wrote:
mirco wrote: "Whatever the pros & cons of the monk in question, do not expect to change anyones mind or even raise interest.
Also dont try using reasoned arguments, it will all end in tears."
Such great wise words!
Wise words? More a sad commentary on the emotional investment people are capable of making in another human being without due consideration, which is why so many of us get sucked into unwise associations with questionable teachers.
Sorry tilt, maybe there is a need of claryfication.

I just said "such wise words", referring to stop the conflict and try to him not convince the others from the moral or conduct or anything else from that monk.

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tiltbillings
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:14 pm

Goedert wrote:
I just said "such wise words", referring to stop the conflict and try to him not convince the others from the moral or conduct or anything else from that monk.
Okay, I think.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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yuttadhammo
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by yuttadhammo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:27 am

mirco wrote:I understand it thus: The culturale roots of the teacher are american.
What about the IMS, founded in 1975? I would think they are far more culturally 'merican than a guy wearing purple robes... how many 'mericans wear purple robes? Seems like he's importing Indian culture, wouldn't you say?

I shudder at the thought of an American Buddhist anything... I get stopped routinely on the street by 'mericans who take affront at my robes, as though I'm an exhibitionist trying to attract attention by wearing something different. I was arrested last year and put in jail because some 'merican thought I was a streaker. If I were dark skinned and had an accent, I'd fit right in with the sikhs and hindu ladies.
No rituals and rites from asia, as you can often find in Theravadan Thai, Sri Lankan, etc. temples and monasteries.
The bottom line for me is that as soon as you say "American", you fit right in with "Thai Buddhism" in my mind, and I tend to think we'll have a hard time getting along... Buddhist is Buddhist is Buddhist. Don't we have enough schisms already?
The point is, I think, that you can find a lot of Buddhist places where there are recitations and rites connected to that very culture the founders come from. Also having the lays reciting stuff in Pali without explaining is quite common, as I heard.
The point is, I think, the clinging to "us" and "them" which is really what you do when you start a new "tradition". Seems like just a euphemism for sect, really. Like the "Thai Forest Tradition", as though the only Thai monks ever to live in forests were the students of Ajaan Mun. I agree with you that most Buddhist monasteries in America are culturally based and often quite far off track as far as Buddhist teachings go, but there are many exceptions, and no need to create a new tradition. Especially an "American tradition".
They also have a trining program for foreign monks at the Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center, where tey can learn how to teach Dhamma in that easy language instead of using e.g. Pali terms and not knowing how to explain it in english, because they don't know tha language that well.
If by this you mean to say that the reason monks use Pali is because they don't know how to explain things in English, I think you've just insulted a fair number of people...
And this is the difference: plain english only, easy to understand wording, nothing will disappear in some unexplained exotic mist.

Metta, always,
:) Mirco
Actually, it is the "unexplained exotic mist" caused by colloquial English that we try to do away with by referring back to the Pali... if Vimalaramsi is really planning to do away with the Pali language, he's truly in a tradition of his own...

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Cittasanto
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:55 am

The point is, I think, that you can find a lot of Buddhist places where there are recitations and rites connected to that very culture the founders come from. Also having the lays reciting stuff in Pali without explaining is quite common, as I heard.
I have a chanting book from Amaravati right next to me, and it is the same as the one from Abhiagiri in the us, except doesn't include the suttas, that is a seperate book which I have right next to me also, both have english translations! and I am and have been fully capable of asking the monks questions regarding the translations, some of which may not be experts, but can point people in the right direction of someone to ask, or look in one of the Dictionaries available in the library!
They also have a trining program for foreign monks at the Dhamma Sukha Meditation Center, where tey can learn how to teach Dhamma in that easy language instead of using e.g. Pali terms and not knowing how to explain it in english, because they don't know tha language that well.
pali is actually useful, as some of the words can not be covered properly in english, and as English is a living language it evolves, changes, the pali, on the other hand, being a dead language doesn't, one big problem for the plain english only is that plain english will by its very nature change.
And this is the difference: plain english only, easy to understand wording, nothing will disappear in some unexplained exotic mist.
untill the english changes! as it does! the language has changed from the original translations, and there still is no accepted standard translation for quite a few words!
the chinese took 400 years to standardise the language (so I have been told) so who's plain english? (his plain english regarding AIDS & Cancer? you suggested they get clarification from him, so ...)

if someone is familiar with Thanisarros translations, and not with Bodhi's translations and someone is familiar with I.B.Horners but not Thanissaros are these two equally accommodated with the plain english? or do they ban anyones translation for conformity? (BTW, I know the answer)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

LuisR
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Re: American Buddhist Forest Tradition

Post by LuisR » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:02 pm

I just watched this guys youtube channel and he reminds me of the preachers I used to see on access cable back in the 90s.

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