About nibbana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sunrise
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About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:47 pm

Has anyone read AB's book "mindfulness, bliss and beyond"? If so, don't you think he is describing a more absorption kind of meditation and not necessarily anapanasathi as the Buddha explained it?

He has described that the mind attends to "Nibbana" when arising from the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception". Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana. Ajhan Buddhadasa doesn't even mention that higher jhanas are necessary for Nibbana.

Will appreciate your opinions

:namaste:

rowyourboat
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Re: About nibbana

Post by rowyourboat » Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:08 pm

There's no jhana
for one with no discernment,
no
discernment
for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana
&
discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding. (ie- not yet there, almost there)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-372" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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IanAnd
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Re: About nibbana

Post by IanAnd » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:11 pm

Sunrise wrote:Has anyone read AB's book "mindfulness, bliss and beyond"? If so, don't you think he is describing a more absorption kind of meditation and not necessarily anapanasathi as the Buddha explained it?
Ajahn Brahm has a tendency to describe absorption in terms of the deeper manifestations of such. But this is only his opinion. And there is no consensus that his opinion is correct for anyone but himself. There are several other meditation teachers who teach a kind of "middle path" on this issue, and like rowyourboat suggests, that one should develop discernment using concentration (samadhi) and absorption concentration (jhana) to help develop these abilities and guide one's practice. You cannot explore (contemplate) matters of insight if your mind is completely blanked out (no possibility of thought, no decision—making process, no perception of time, consciousness is nondual making comprehension inaccessible, the five senses are fully shut off) and you are basking in "bliss" a la Aj. Brahm's model. Although you can use that state (primarily the 4th jhana) to help condition the mind to be able to attain it again in the future or to help develop and strengthen sati (mindfulness) in normal everyday consciousness, which will take you a great deal of the way toward nibbana. Remember, the Buddha once said, "Bhikkhus, mindfulness, I say, is always useful."
Sunrise wrote: He has described that the mind attends to "Nibbana" when arising from the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception". Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana. Ajhan Buddhadasa doesn't even mention that higher jhanas are necessary for Nibbana.
Opinions are like noses: everyone has one. What really matter is: are you able to quiet the mind and to be able to see "things as they are" and not be deluded by your own prejudices.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

Sunrise
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:24 am

IanAnd wrote:You cannot explore (contemplate) matters of insight if your mind is completely blanked out (no possibility of thought, no decision—making process, no perception of time, consciousness is nondual making comprehension inaccessible, the five senses are fully shut off) and you are basking in "bliss" a la Aj. Brahm's model.
Agree with this. However, AB explains vipassana in the immediate neighborhood of jhana not while in the jhana

Sunrise
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:26 am

IanAnd wrote:Opinions are like noses: everyone has one. What really matter is: are you able to quiet the mind and to be able to see "things as they are" and not be deluded by your own prejudices.
Thanks for your opinion Ian ;)

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IanAnd
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Re: About nibbana

Post by IanAnd » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:55 am

In light of another thread, I re-read your original questions and came up with the following:
Sunrise wrote:Has anyone read AB's book "mindfulness, bliss and beyond"? If so, don't you think he is describing a more absorption kind of meditation and not necessarily anapanasathi as the Buddha explained it?
Yes, your observation is correct.
Sunrise wrote: He has described that the mind attends to "Nibbana" when arising from the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception".
Yes, this can occur. However, there is also another way that this can occur. SN 12.70 and AN 4.87 tell us of arahants liberated through discernment who may not have any of the formless attainments.
Sunrise wrote: Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana.
Well, certainly not during the attainment of the ninth jhana, the cessation of perception and feeling, since there is no awareness in that state except on coming out of it and in review. So, in that sense, what Bh. Vimala is stating here is true. He must be speaking about the ninth jhana rather than the eighth — neither perception nor non-perception, in which the practitioner retains awareness.
Sunrise wrote: Ajhan Buddhadasa doesn't even mention that higher jhanas are necessary for Nibbana.
And this view harkens back to the arahant liberated through discernment who may not have any of the formless attainments.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

Sunrise
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:22 pm

Many thanks Ian.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: About nibbana

Post by jcsuperstar » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:14 am

Sunrise wrote:
Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana
i believe when he is describing the blackout thing he is criticizing the Mahasi method
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Sunrise
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:16 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana
i believe when he is describing the blackout thing he is criticizing the Mahasi method
I didn't get any clue that he is specifically criticizing the Mahasi method but then again I haven't followed his teachings all that much so maybe I have missed that point. The idea I got was that he is stating that the perception of nothingness (I don't remember if it is the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception" or anything beyond that) is not necessarily Nibbana. As he says, his mind has attended to this state but it was a mere blackout with no vipassana or any cessation. On the contrarily, AB specifically says that when arising from the perception of nothingness there is only one possibility: either arahathhood or anagami

Kenshou
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Kenshou » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:29 am

Really? Anagami or arahant due to simply the sphere of nothingness? Are you sure he didn't mean the cessation of perception and feeling?

If you aren't mistaken, then Ajahn Brahm most likely is.

Sunrise
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Sunrise » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:01 am

Kenshou wrote:Really? Anagami or arahant due to simply the sphere of nothingness? Are you sure he didn't mean the cessation of perception and feeling?

If you aren't mistaken, then Ajahn Brahm most likely is.
What do you mean by "cessation of feeling?" :jawdrop:

Kenshou
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Kenshou » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:10 am

There is a meditative accomplishment beyond neither-perception-nor-non-perception, which is sañña-vedayita-nirodha/the cessation of perception and feeling.

In which apparently, consciousness stops occurring and everything stops for a little while. I believe that this does, supposedly, bring a person to the level of anagami at least. But the formless jhana of nothingness doesn't do that.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: About nibbana

Post by jcsuperstar » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:12 am

Sunrise wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Bhante Vimalaramsi seems to be explaining this as a mere "total blackout" and does not lead to Nibbana
i believe when he is describing the blackout thing he is criticizing the Mahasi method
I didn't get any clue that he is specifically criticizing the Mahasi method but then again I haven't followed his teachings all that much so maybe I have missed that point. The idea I got was that he is stating that the perception of nothingness (I don't remember if it is the jhana "neither perception nor non-perception" or anything beyond that) is not necessarily Nibbana. As he says, his mind has attended to this state but it was a mere blackout with no vipassana or any cessation. On the contrarily, AB specifically says that when arising from the perception of nothingness there is only one possibility: either arahathhood or anagami
in the past I've listened to a lot of his talks and 99% of the time if he is criticizing a method it is the mahasi method since that is what he learned in Burma and according to him he mastered it and it doesn't lead to awakening.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Kenshou
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Re: About nibbana

Post by Kenshou » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:21 am

Pardon me, what are you talking about? Lacking context.

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jcsuperstar
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Re: About nibbana

Post by jcsuperstar » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:26 am

Kenshou wrote:Pardon me, what are you talking about? Lacking context.
nevermind mispost sorry :tongue:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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