How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:41 am

Dhammanando wrote:
R1111 wrote:We can also know that the next Buddha will be born when the Path is lost so to speak and monks are no longer getting attainments.
There are said to be several stages in the disappearance of the Saddhamma, with two different schemes describing this: one a five-stage one and the other a three-stage one. In both schemes the disappearance of ariyan attainments (adhigama-antaradhāna) is only the first stage.

Then, according to the five-stage scheme...

After the first disappearance there is still practice but it's a practice that's incapable of yielding the highest fruits in the present life. But after some time people give up practising. This is the second disappearance, called paṭipatti-antaradhāna.

Even though practice has disappeared, the scriptures still exist and are still studied. But after some time even study comes to be neglected and disappears. This is pariyatti-antaradhāna.

Nevertheless a remnant of the monastic saṅgha still exists, albeit scarcely more than a token saṅgha, knowing nothing of the Dhamma and hardly observing any Vinaya. But even this eventually disappears. This is called liṅga-antaradhāna. I think liṅga here means something like an outward visible sign of something.

Then, some time after the saṅgha has disappeared the Buddha's bodily relics disappear. This is called disappearance of the elements dhātu-antaradhāna. Only then is the dark age in between Sammāsambuddhas said to begin.

In the three-stage scheme the last two stages are omitted.
Thank you Bhante.
santa100 wrote:Sorry to break it to you but those educated guesses aren't really that useful.
If we had educated guesses of the whole community we could make estimations based on shared knowledge which is alot better than what we have atm, educated for controlling for wild guesses, giving diffrent opinions diffrent weight will make sure expertise is factored in. In this way educated guesses can be very useful fwiw imho.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Disciple » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:06 am

SarathW wrote:
Many of us have stressful jobs and people to look after.
Stressful job will not stop you becoming a Sotapanna.
Most probably it is a great help if you are lucky enough to listen to Buddha Dhamma.
How does one actually know if they are a sotapanna or not? I know there are the three fetters to eradicate but it is easy to deceive oneself in thinking that they have gotten rid of them when they haven't.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:11 am

How does one actually know if they are a sotapanna or not?

Litmus test is to see whether the person is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Disciple » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:29 am

SarathW wrote:
How does one actually know if they are a sotapanna or not?

Litmus test is to see whether the person is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
But it is possible to follow the noble eightfold path with steadfast determination your whole life and still not achieve stream-entry. There are no guarantees.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:35 am

Disciple wrote:
SarathW wrote:
How does one actually know if they are a sotapanna or not?

Litmus test is to see whether the person is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
But it is possible to follow the noble eightfold path with steadfast determination your whole life and still not achieve stream-entry. There are no guarantees.
The way I understand if you follow the Noble Eightfold Path with steadfast determination your whole life, then you are already in the path.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:49 am

A sotapanna has unshakable confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. So if one has doubts about any of those, then there is still work to do.
A sotapanna still has conceit and enjoys sense pleasures, so he/she is still far from anagami or arahantship.

It is somewhat debatable and there are various opinions on this; but the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts, so if one finds him/herself still making some transgressions there (lying, alcohol, recreational drugs, etc) then there is still work to do.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Sotapanna

And then in terms of practice, there are also various opinions as to whether some proficiency in jhanas are necessary or not. Certainly a glimpse of Nibbana is attained, as well as some glimpse of anatta, from an analytical and experiential setting.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:16 am

David N. Snyder wrote:..the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts..
Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found? I am curious because ive only seen this stated in Mahasi Saydaw's discourse, i thought it was probably a view as Suttas leave it to definition of heedlesness and excessive heedlesness as in Ratana Sutta for bad behavior and there is real much real indication that he/she wont break precepts, there is alot of suggestive evidence of contrary tho, like adherence to precepts and practices, list of things he cant do, unclear definition of excessive heedlesness, explaining diffrence between indulging in sensuality and heedlesness eventually becomes problematic and as degree of excess is introduced i think the non precept breaking theory is really in conflict with the context and truth is not supposed to have irregularities like this.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:28 am

R1111 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:..the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts..
Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found? I am curious because ive only seen this stated in Mahasi Saydaw's discourse, i thought it was probably a view.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 256&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:30 am

SarathW wrote:
R1111 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:..the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts..
Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found? I am curious because ive only seen this stated in Mahasi Saydaw's discourse, i thought it was probably a view.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 256&hilit=
i am familiar with the thread, im just curious as to how David arrived on that conclusion as i was not convinced at all by the evidence presented.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:32 am

R1111 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:..the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts..
Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found?
See also the link in my post, especially the word repeated: "unbroken" (in regard to precepts).

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:34 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
R1111 wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:..the Suttas suggest that a sotapanna has perfect sila and does not intentionally break any of the 5 precepts..
Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found?
See also the link in my post, especially the word repeated: "unbroken" (in regard to precepts).
But it doesnt say Unbroken Panca Sila or does it?

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by DNS » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:35 am

R1111 wrote: But it doesnt say Unbroken Panca Sila or does it?
No, not directly, thus, it is somewhat debatable and opinions vary.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by santa100 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:39 am

R1111 wrote:Does anybody know where in the Tipitaka this is found? I am curious because ive only seen this stated in Mahasi Saydaw's discourse, i thought it was a view.
It's from the Four Factors of Stream-Entry:
SN 12.41 wrote:What are the four factors of stream-entry that he possesses? Here, householder, the noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: ‘The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.’

“He possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma thus: ‘The Dhamma is well expounded by the Blessed One, directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally experienced by the wise.’

“He possesses confirmed confidence in the Saṅgha thus: ‘The Saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is practising the good way, practising the straight way, practising the true way, practising the proper way; that is, the four pairs of persons, the eight types of individuals—this Saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of reverential salutation, the unsurpassed field of merit for the world.’

He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones—unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration.

“These are the four factors of stream-entry that he possesses.
Ven. Nyanaponika's note from MN7 further clarifies:
MN 7 wrote:Unwavering confidence" (aveccappasada). Comy.: "unshakable and immutable trust." Confidence of that nature is not attained before stream-entry because only at that stage is the fetter of sceptical doubt (vicikiccha-samyojana) finally eliminated. Unwavering confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha are three of four characteristic qualities of a stream-winner (sotapaññassa angani); the fourth is unbroken morality, which may be taken to be implied in Sec. 9 of our discourse referring to the relinquishment of the defilements.
Lastly, Ven. Bodhi's note from "Connected Discourses" citing the Commentary's further clarification on what was meant by virtures/morality:
Spk: "The virtues dear to the noble ones" (ariyakantani silani) are the five precepts, which the noble ones do not forsake even when they pass on to a new existence.
The terms are explained at Vism 222 (Ppn 7:104). These virtues are ungrasped (aparamattha) in the sense that they are not adhered to with craving and wrong view.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:51 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
R1111 wrote: But it doesnt say Unbroken Panca Sila or does it?
No, not directly, thus, it is somewhat debatable and opinions vary.
I am inclined to make a separate thread about Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw and discuss some views i have developed in regards to his statements on Ariyahood, higher training and speculate abit.

I will say this however on the subject of Unbroken Sila, when Buddha said why low rebirth is abandoned it would have been much easier to say that he doesnt break Panca Sila rather than listing things he wont do like matricide. I dont know what the true meaning is but imo Unbroken can well refer to Unbroken in terms of not taking low birth or something like this. It is also said that he wont lie about wrong doings if questioned he wont hide it rather than saying Panca Sila there is seemingly unnecessary amount of "sub restrictions", i think there is just alot that suggest that it is possible, and there are problems with Panca Sila theory, which it is i think, a theory of Mahasi Sayadaw, perhaps it can happen in lay state, the theory fits quite well with everything if Mahasi somehow developed that view, i personally dont think he was an Arahant but i think he was Ariya. Perhaps the lay state is so weak that it not only makes Arahants die, maybe it can be grounds for Sotapanna to break precepts in certain circumstance.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:17 am

santa100 wrote: ...
Thank you for the relevant passages, i will address the Visudhimagga in the other thread so this one doesnt get derailed any further. There is atleast one more passage that i know of to support the Pancasila theory, however it is also open to interpretation so there is more than reasonable doubt imo.

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