A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of TheravÄda Buddhism
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With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?
You need Right View, as Right View is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path.Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..
Right view is an integral part of stream-entering. Without a faith in the Buddha's teachings, there is no progression down the path. People can be intelligent, kind, loving, decent, moral people but that doesn't make them stream-enterers.Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it people of a single religion..
A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.khlawng wrote:You need not be a Buddhist. Hence the term paccebuddha .
It's worth ensuring one doesn't apply arahant standards to the sotipanna. The article I linked to at the bottom of page one of this topic suggests that stream-entry is the start of the training, rather than the by-product of years of laborious trial-and-error "Dhamma practice" merely to enter the stream. The meaning and status of the word "sekha" (trainee) would also suggest that to be so.mikenz66 wrote:That "practice" and "abandonment" doesn't seem to be trivial for the average person, judging from the generic descriptions in the suttas of gradual training, and so on.
The practices and beliefs are atman-theory and belief in the efficacy of rites and rituals (in contrast to kamma)... a broad-brush statement on exactly which rites and rituals are practiced isn't really relevant, as they may differ amongst individual brahmans. You, not being brahman, needn't be concerned unless you have your own rituals or metaphysical beliefs to let go of.mikenz66 wrote:I've no idea what the "couple of prevailing Brahman practices and beliefs" you refer to in your post are, though.
Oh my understanding was that a Buddhist today, you and I, is one that relies on the Dhamma taught by The Buddha (Gotama) to gain awakening. The Dhamma, being the universal truth, as such, cannot be claimed by anyone or any religion including Buddhists. As such, there are beings who never heard of the Buddha's teaching, but gained enlightenment through their own effort, hence the term, private Buddha or paccebuddha.LonesomeYogurt wrote: A paccebuddha is still a Buddhist in that he or she would agree with the teachings of the Buddha. A Buddhist is someone who affirms the eternal Dhamma as rediscovered in this world by Gotama. That fits a paccebuddha just as much as it fits you or me.
it is unlikely, although the texts as I understand them seam to indicate that it would be unlikely to find the qualities of a stream enterer in someone outside the Dhammavinaya mainly because once they find the teachings that is where they stay and the practice of other traditions due to one form of wrong view or another within the philosophical framework inhibits the attainment.Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..tiltbillings wrote:The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
Well, if one takes the Buddha's teachings seriously, not odd at all.Viscid wrote:Only Buddhists can be stream-enterers? It seems odd, if stream-entry is a real phenomenon, to limit it to people of a single religion..tiltbillings wrote:The problem is for all your enthusiasm, and for your claim of being a stream winner, you have not shown you really know anything about the Buddha's teachings.divine wrote:And while doing all this, we should follow the path.
That does not answer the question put to you.khlawng wrote:With proper right effort, followed by guided right concentration and widom, enough experience would lead to the eventual conclusion.tiltbillings wrote:Let me ask you: is every experience of a sense of transcending the self stream entry?
If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
tiltbillings wrote:If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
can you help me rephrase that question in a simpler manner and maybe, if time permits, expand it a little? I am very curious about what you are asking.tiltbillings wrote:That does not answer the question put to you.
I do not need convincing. Most likely you had yourself a self-transcending experience, and you are trying to find a slot within which to plug it so that you can understand what it is with which you are now identifying yourself, and you seem to think Buddhism fits it. If, however, you had the sort of insight of which the Buddha speaks, you would present yourself a bit differently, in line with an insight that you seem to be seriously missing. But it is important in this quest of yours to keep an open mind, not lock yourself into any experience, no matter spiffy it may seem, and in time you might get it, but in the mean time, listen and learn.divine wrote:This sounds awfully like a personal meaning and an invitation to convince you, but I won't accept it.
tiltbillings wrote:If you are as you claim, you would not being saying that.divine wrote:But the bottom line is, I don't need it.
