Hi Individual
Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?
with metta
Matheesha
How common is stream entry?
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Re: How common is stream entry?
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
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& Upekkha
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Re: How common is stream entry?
No they aren'trowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual
Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?
with metta
Matheesha
Re: How common is stream entry?
Why not?rowyourboat wrote:Hi Individual
Realizing Anatta and stream entry are not synonymous, no?
with metta
Matheesha
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: How common is stream entry?
Not ultimately a "person" no but am I right that there is "ultimately" a set of skandhas that enter the path of vision?Individual wrote:This is an old discussion but if I can add to it: There are no such thing as stream-enterers; that is, "stream-entering persons." This is only a conventional expression
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Re: How common is stream entry?
There is ultimately no person nor is there anything else that might even seem similar to "personhood." One could use various expressions, but it is still a conventional point of view. Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.
in the path of vision, one does not think even in terms of "this" or "that", because This vs. That is simply a more subtle version of Self vs. Other. This is self, that is other; this is self, those are others. Stream-enterers don't think this way. Overcoming self-view (sakkaya-ditthi) is an obstacle to stream-entry.
In this sense, you could say stream-entry is extremely rare, although ultimately there are no stream-enterers, because it is a process of non-becoming. If stream-entry were something one becomes, it would simply be another realm of samsara to pop in and out of.
in the path of vision, one does not think even in terms of "this" or "that", because This vs. That is simply a more subtle version of Self vs. Other. This is self, that is other; this is self, those are others. Stream-enterers don't think this way. Overcoming self-view (sakkaya-ditthi) is an obstacle to stream-entry.
In this sense, you could say stream-entry is extremely rare, although ultimately there are no stream-enterers, because it is a process of non-becoming. If stream-entry were something one becomes, it would simply be another realm of samsara to pop in and out of.
Re: How common is stream entry?
That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?
Don't we all?......people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.
Re: How common is stream entry?
Indeed. But as Ajahn Chah said "Don't make problems, then the world has none either."appicchato wrote:Don't we all?......people...I would suspect may have problems with reality.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: How common is stream entry?
The task begins when one gains the experiential insight of Anatta (no-self), a wisdom of itself that destroys two more fetters. One can never again uphold a view or doctrine of self, and is aligned toward the selfless state that is at the end of the enlightenment process. There may be many more Sotapannas than we may know, as they have a tendency to work "behind the scenes" for the benefit of others rather than proclaim any achievement or attainment; for they realize there is no "self" that applies to either. To the degree that we uphold a doctrine of self, we remain unawakened. At least that's my understanding.
Namaste
Namaste
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Re: How common is stream entry?
It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.kirk5a wrote:That is nihilism. If there are no skandhas other than point of view, then there are no fingers, and so how did these messages get typed out?Individual wrote: Outside points of view, there are no skandhas.
Re: How common is stream entry?
Then use it in answering my question, please.Individual wrote: It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?
Don't make problemskirk5a wrote:Then use it in answering my question, please.Individual wrote: It would be nihilism if it were fabricated and mused over in terms of self; it is not nihilism when it is experienced and used selflessly.
Re: How common is stream entry?
Don't make views.Individual wrote: Don't make problems
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: How common is stream entry?
Hmm.. not very productive.
Let me put it like this:
Anatta (the understanding that there is no self in any 'real' sense) is understood at a stage of insight/nana called 'sammassana nana' - the knowledge of comprehension'. However this is not the stage at which stream entry is finally reached. It is finally reached at the point of magga-phala citta- which is the crescent of the vipassana process.
This process (from the start) can be understood in the below framework:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope that is more helpful.
with metta
Matheesha
Let me put it like this:
Anatta (the understanding that there is no self in any 'real' sense) is understood at a stage of insight/nana called 'sammassana nana' - the knowledge of comprehension'. However this is not the stage at which stream entry is finally reached. It is finally reached at the point of magga-phala citta- which is the crescent of the vipassana process.
This process (from the start) can be understood in the below framework:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope that is more helpful.
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: How common is stream entry?
Hello guys! I found this thread by a google search, and thought I'd chip in. I became a stream enterer a couple of months ago, allthough at the time I didn't know the term "stream enterer" nor the part about 7 rebirths. I find this idea... well... pleasing...
As for the topic of this thread, I have absolutely no idea how common stream entry is. But I can say something about MY experience.
My stream entry experience is hard to put in words, when I try it all comes out so... un-worthy. It sounds pretentious and insane. I'd rather not convey, if that's all right. The experience could easily be labelled temporary madness or imagination running wild, if I had not been lucky enough to have in my toolbox the ana pana technique and equanimity from Goenka Vipassana. The ana pana and equanimity is from my perspective an essential part. So I guess lots of people can have the possibility of stream entry without going all the way with it, because of the overload. At one point I got the impression that it was written, you know, like destined. But it might be my soiled mind adding to the experience.
In addition I find it weird that I reached this experience with so little meditation, all I have is a little vipassana and some intermediate yoga. How can this be? I have done a number of wholesome deeds, though, and have been practising equanimity in the daily life - not so much but a little. That's my background in few words.
Despite having reached this level of enlightenment there is so many things I don't know, for instance I had to learn the term "stream enterer" when I was reading up on buddhism on wikipedia. One major question that is yet unanswered to me (please answer if you know) is how can we really be sure that the stream enterer is guaranteed a maximum of 7 rebirths? What is the source of this information? I am sceptic to these institutionalised religion-like stuff, but I recognised enough from my experience with what I read on wikipedia to be ready to read the original scriptures.
Also this experience showed me what to do with my life, but not in detail, for instance I would like to have some guidance to meditation. I know it seems silly, becoming a stream enterer and wanting to be held hands like a child. But this is really new, and I think it could be useful to have a guide or a manual for newly made stream enterers. Or maybe this is to be found in the scriptures? In that case, which?
I have not told anyone I know about this, as I think it will become a burden on our relationship, and I can see no benefit of doing it. As I improve as a person they will have more benefit than if I just tell them.
PS. "I" is like... you know
As for the topic of this thread, I have absolutely no idea how common stream entry is. But I can say something about MY experience.
My stream entry experience is hard to put in words, when I try it all comes out so... un-worthy. It sounds pretentious and insane. I'd rather not convey, if that's all right. The experience could easily be labelled temporary madness or imagination running wild, if I had not been lucky enough to have in my toolbox the ana pana technique and equanimity from Goenka Vipassana. The ana pana and equanimity is from my perspective an essential part. So I guess lots of people can have the possibility of stream entry without going all the way with it, because of the overload. At one point I got the impression that it was written, you know, like destined. But it might be my soiled mind adding to the experience.
In addition I find it weird that I reached this experience with so little meditation, all I have is a little vipassana and some intermediate yoga. How can this be? I have done a number of wholesome deeds, though, and have been practising equanimity in the daily life - not so much but a little. That's my background in few words.
Despite having reached this level of enlightenment there is so many things I don't know, for instance I had to learn the term "stream enterer" when I was reading up on buddhism on wikipedia. One major question that is yet unanswered to me (please answer if you know) is how can we really be sure that the stream enterer is guaranteed a maximum of 7 rebirths? What is the source of this information? I am sceptic to these institutionalised religion-like stuff, but I recognised enough from my experience with what I read on wikipedia to be ready to read the original scriptures.
Also this experience showed me what to do with my life, but not in detail, for instance I would like to have some guidance to meditation. I know it seems silly, becoming a stream enterer and wanting to be held hands like a child. But this is really new, and I think it could be useful to have a guide or a manual for newly made stream enterers. Or maybe this is to be found in the scriptures? In that case, which?
I have not told anyone I know about this, as I think it will become a burden on our relationship, and I can see no benefit of doing it. As I improve as a person they will have more benefit than if I just tell them.
PS. "I" is like... you know
One should believe it could be beneficial to post information about attainment in a thread like "How common is stream entry?", but I had no idea you are regularly vitnessing these claims and often there are something else behind it. You have been great giving only kind advice and healthy scepticism. Metta!