How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3837
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am

aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
I guess the distinction then is about how they got to the path of stream entry, their respective temperaments, etc?
Yes. It's a question of whether the wisdom faculty or the faith faculty is predominant.
aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
I think there was a thread a few months ago where we discussed whether or not stream entry is defined by the experience of Nibbāna, not matter how fleeting. I guess the classical tradition is clear on this.
Yes. In the initial attainment of each of the noble paths and fruits the experience of Nibbāna will always be fleeting, though some will subsequently be able to experience it for a lengthy duration via the attainment of phalasamāpatti.
aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
Please correct me if I wrong: I believe this consciousness is classified as lokuttara citta, and that it occurs in lokuttara jhana, with all five jhana factors (assuming the first jhana) present, regardless of whether we are considering the samatha yanika or the vipassana yanika... is that right?
Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas.
aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
From reading Venerable Mahasi I've gotten the impression that he believes at the path moment all six sensory spheres cease.
Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.
aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
(Forgive me as I can't cite an example at the moment but I can dig something up later). I mean no disrespect to the Venerable, but in light of the above, is this a "novel" reading of the classical tradition?
No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
aflatun wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
(If this is out of place here I'm happy to start a thread in the classical subforum)
I don't think it's out of place. Being in the General Theravada forum just means that posters are at liberty to dissent from and to challenge the commentarial understanding, whereas in the Classical Forum one is required to assume for discussion purposes that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries get things right.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am

Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?
Last edited by aflatun on Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:18 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:53 am

In the commentaries the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri are both stated to have arrived at the path of stream-entry. Of course those who base their conclusions on the Suttas alone might arrive at some other view. But since you make recourse in your post to the commentarial conception of...
Out of curiosity, I looked in the largest book on my reading list..the (obviously non Theravadin) Abhidharmakosabasyam has this to say about the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri:
Vasubandhu wrote:We have explained how the Path of Seeing and the Path of Meditation arise. We should now define the persons (pudgala) in whom the Noble Path arises. In the course of the fifteen moments which are the nature of the Path of Seeing,

29a-b. In these moments, the ascetics of weak and sharp faculties are respectively Sraddhanusarin and Dharmanusarin.

Placed in these moments, the ascetic with weak faculties is called a Sraddhanusarin; the ascetic with sharp faculties is called a Dharmanusarin. Here the word "faculties" (indriyas) signifies the faculties of faith, absorption, etc.

...

These two ascetics,

29c-d. If they have not abandoned the defilements to be abandoned through Meditation, they are candidates for the first result.

"The first result", that is, the first of the results, the state of Srotaapanna which is in fact the first resultant state in the order of acquisition.

...

31a-b. In the sixteenth moment, the ascetic becomes an abider in the state for which he was a candidate.

In the sixteenth moment, these two ascetics no longer bear the name of Sraddhanusarin or Dharmanusarin; they no longer bear the name of candidates. They are "abiders in a result": candidates for the state of Srotaapanna, Sakrdagamin, or Anagamin, now become Srotaapannas, Sakrdagamins, or Anagamins.

...

31c-d. At this moment, the ascetics with weak and sharp faculties become respectively Sraddhadhimukta or Drstiprapta.
This is all based on the Path of Seeing with its 16 moments, none of which I have any command of so I'm not sure I follow him. I'm not sure if "Noble Path" includes that first 15 moments or not...I dunno I'm going to have to do a lot of back reading on this. Sorry to muddy the waters, I thought I'd share.

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Saengnapha
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:20 am

aflatun wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am
Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.
Blackout seems to be describing the samadhi of nothingness, which is a temporary state of mind and let go of by the Buddha in his own awakening.

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 588
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:18 am

@zerotime, your post had a lot of words friend, not all sure what you're saying. but take for example sarakāni who was a heavy drinker but attained stream entry. the buddha said of him that he completed the training before he died.
based on everything i know and have shared i understand it to be impossible not to keep the precepts after entering the stream, but certainly before
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2591
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:45 am

Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas
just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .

justindesilva
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:39 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:45 am
Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas
just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .
I remember an instance when I was about 12 years I felt that I should get away from my family and all my belonging s. But as I was the only boy with four sisters I was persusded to stay back with my family thus ensuring a duty towards my parents. Later I had to look after my parents as the only boy in th family and was tied.
Yet I feel I have not given up , but I (now old ) am striving to get back in to the stream . In fact this is what a laymen is tied up with but I see a ray of hope by trying to break away from the immediate family and to be a lone meditator. Am I not a stream enterer.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 697
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:18 am

aflatun wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am
Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?
Some relevant passages that support your point, Bhante:
Ven. Mahasi wrote:
Nevertheless, during a period of fruition knowledge, lasting an hour or two, reflective moments sometimes arise, but they disappear after four or five noticings, and fruition knowledge recurs. In some cases, fruition knowledge lasts for several hours, without any interruption. While fruition knowledge lasts, consciousness is absolutely set upon the cessation of formations known by the designation of nirvana. Nirvana is a dharma entirely liberated from the bodily and mental process and all mundane notions. Therefore, during the experiencing of fruition knowledge there arises no awareness of one’s bodily and mental processes and of this world, or of any other mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from the entire mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from all mundane knowledge and inclinations. There are around him all objects to see, hear, smell or touch, but he is not aware of them at all.
Practical Insight Meditation, pg. 39-40

Ven. Mahasi wrote:
Thereupon, immediately after the last consciousness in the series of acts of noticing belonging to this insight leading to emergence, the meditator's consciousness leaps forth into Nibbana, which is the cessation of all formations, taking it as its object. Then there appears to him the stilling (subsidence) of all formations called cessation.

...

If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.
The Progress of Insight



I had that totally wrong! Thank you for pointing this out Bhante.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ganegaar, justindesilva, no-xit, rightviewftw, robertk and 72 guests