aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm
I guess the distinction then is about how they got to the path of stream entry, their respective temperaments, etc?
Yes. It's a question of whether the wisdom faculty or the faith faculty is predominant.
aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmI think there was a thread a few months ago where we discussed whether or not stream entry is defined by the experience of Nibbāna, not matter how fleeting. I guess the classical tradition is clear on this.
Yes. In the initial attainment of each of the noble paths and fruits the experience of Nibbāna will always be fleeting, though some will subsequently be able to experience it for a lengthy duration via the attainment of phalasamāpatti.
aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmPlease correct me if I wrong: I believe this consciousness is classified as lokuttara citta, and that it occurs in lokuttara jhana, with all five jhana factors (assuming the first jhana) present, regardless of whether we are considering the samatha yanika or the vipassana yanika... is that right?
Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas.
aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pmFrom reading Venerable Mahasi I've gotten the impression that he believes at the path moment all six sensory spheres cease.
Cognition of the
five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.
aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm(Forgive me as I can't cite an example at the moment but I can dig something up later). I mean no disrespect to the Venerable, but in light of the above, is this a "novel" reading of the classical tradition?
No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What
is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
aflatun wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:14 pm(If this is out of place here I'm happy to start a thread in the classical subforum)
I don't think it's out of place. Being in the General Theravada forum just means that posters are at liberty to dissent from and to challenge the commentarial understanding, whereas in the Classical Forum one is required to assume for discussion purposes that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries get things right.