How common is stream entry?

[Dhammanando]

I guess the distinction then is about how they got to the path of stream entry, their respective temperaments, etc?

Yes. It's a question of whether the wisdom faculty or the faith faculty is predominant.

I think there was a thread a few months ago where we discussed whether or not stream entry is defined by the experience of Nibbāna, not matter how fleeting. I guess the classical tradition is clear on this.

Yes. In the initial attainment of each of the noble paths and fruits the experience of Nibbāna will always be fleeting, though some will subsequently be able to experience it for a lengthy duration via the attainment of phalasamāpatti.

Please correct me if I wrong: I believe this consciousness is classified as lokuttara citta, and that it occurs in lokuttara jhana, with all five jhana factors (assuming the first jhana) present, regardless of whether we are considering the samatha yanika or the vipassana yanika... is that right?

Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas.

From reading Venerable Mahasi I've gotten the impression that he believes at the path moment all six sensory spheres cease.

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

(Forgive me as I can't cite an example at the moment but I can dig something up later). I mean no disrespect to the Venerable, but in light of the above, is this a "novel" reading of the classical tradition?

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.

(If this is out of place here I'm happy to start a thread in the classical subforum)

I don't think it's out of place. Being in the General Theravada forum just means that posters are at liberty to dissent from and to challenge the commentarial understanding, whereas in the Classical Forum one is required to assume for discussion purposes that the Abhidhamma and Commentaries get things right.

[aflatun]

Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.

Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?

[aflatun]

In the commentaries the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri are both stated to have arrived at the path of stream-entry. Of course those who base their conclusions on the Suttas alone might arrive at some other view. But since you make recourse in your post to the commentarial conception of...

Out of curiosity, I looked in the largest book on my reading list..the (obviously non Theravadin) Abhidharmakosabasyam has this to say about the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri:

We have explained how the Path of Seeing and the Path of Meditation arise. We should now define the persons (pudgala) in whom the Noble Path arises. In the course of the fifteen moments which are the nature of the Path of Seeing,

29a-b. In these moments, the ascetics of weak and sharp faculties are respectively Sraddhanusarin and Dharmanusarin.

Placed in these moments, the ascetic with weak faculties is called a Sraddhanusarin; the ascetic with sharp faculties is called a Dharmanusarin. Here the word "faculties" (indriyas) signifies the faculties of faith, absorption, etc.

...

These two ascetics,

29c-d. If they have not abandoned the defilements to be abandoned through Meditation, they are candidates for the first result.

"The first result", that is, the first of the results, the state of Srotaapanna which is in fact the first resultant state in the order of acquisition.

...

31a-b. In the sixteenth moment, the ascetic becomes an abider in the state for which he was a candidate.

In the sixteenth moment, these two ascetics no longer bear the name of Sraddhanusarin or Dharmanusarin; they no longer bear the name of candidates. They are "abiders in a result": candidates for the state of Srotaapanna, Sakrdagamin, or Anagamin, now become Srotaapannas, Sakrdagamins, or Anagamins.

...

31c-d. At this moment, the ascetics with weak and sharp faculties become respectively Sraddhadhimukta or Drstiprapta.

This is all based on the Path of Seeing with its 16 moments, none of which I have any command of so I'm not sure I follow him. I'm not sure if "Noble Path" includes that first 15 moments or not...I dunno I'm going to have to do a lot of back reading on this. Sorry to muddy the waters, I thought I'd share.

[Saengnapha]

Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.

Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Blackout seems to be describing the samadhi of nothingness, which is a temporary state of mind and let go of by the Buddha in his own awakening.

[Dhammarakkhito]

@zerotime, your post had a lot of words friend, not all sure what you're saying. but take for example sarakāni who was a heavy drinker but attained stream entry. the buddha said of him that he completed the training before he died.
based on everything i know and have shared i understand it to be impossible not to keep the precepts after entering the stream, but certainly before

[robertk]

Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas

just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .

[justindesilva]

Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas

just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .

I remember an instance when I was about 12 years I felt that I should get away from my family and all my belonging s. But as I was the only boy with four sisters I was persusded to stay back with my family thus ensuring a duty towards my parents. Later I had to look after my parents as the only boy in th family and was tied.
Yet I feel I have not given up , but I (now old ) am striving to get back in to the stream . In fact this is what a laymen is tied up with but I see a ray of hope by trying to break away from the immediate family and to be a lone meditator. Am I not a stream enterer.

[aflatun]

Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.

Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?

Some relevant passages that support your point, Bhante:

Nevertheless, during a period of fruition knowledge, lasting an hour or two, reflective moments sometimes arise, but they disappear after four or five noticings, and fruition knowledge recurs. In some cases, fruition knowledge lasts for several hours, without any interruption. While fruition knowledge lasts, consciousness is absolutely set upon the cessation of formations known by the designation of nirvana. Nirvana is a dharma entirely liberated from the bodily and mental process and all mundane notions. Therefore, during the experiencing of fruition knowledge there arises no awareness of one’s bodily and mental processes and of this world, or of any other mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from the entire mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from all mundane knowledge and inclinations. There are around him all objects to see, hear, smell or touch, but he is not aware of them at all.

Practical Insight Meditation, pg. 39-40

Thereupon, immediately after the last consciousness in the series of acts of noticing belonging to this insight leading to emergence, the meditator's consciousness leaps forth into Nibbana, which is the cessation of all formations, taking it as its object. Then there appears to him the stilling (subsidence) of all formations called cessation.

...

If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.

The Progress of Insight



I had that totally wrong! Thank you for pointing this out Bhante.