How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sovatthika
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Sovatthika » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:12 am

not going to read thru 25 pages to see if this has been posted
viññana sutta:
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

so i'm not going to say stream entry is either common or easy, but one poster said something like genuinely learning/practicing the dhamma leads to stream entry and i think that is the most reasonable conclusion. many say that you have to have perfect virtues, etc. which would imply basically you have to get right at nibbāna and i don't think that's true. many stream enterers have been surprisingly heedless. also, i sort of reject the idea of trying to reach a safe point; although technically true - you can't be reborn in lower states, but you are still living in saṃsāra. there is no respite from that, so sotāpanna is great but don't sell yourself short
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Sovatthika
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Sovatthika » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:57 am

How to Proclaim StreamWinning
by Yourself.
“Housefather, when the fivefold guilty
dread is allayed in the Ariyan disciple and
he is possessed of the four limbs of Streamwinning,
and has well seen and well penetrated
the Ariyan Method by insight.
“He may, if he so desire, himself
proclaim thus of himself:
‘I am one who has cut off the doom of
Purgatory, of rebirth in the womb of an animal,
in the realm of ghosts; cut off is the Waste, the
Ill-bourn, the Downfall. A Stream-winner am I,
one not doomed to the Downfall,assured, bound
for enlightenment.’
“Now, housefather, what is the fivefold
guilty dread that is allayed in him ?
12 Buddhawajana
(1) “It is that guilty dread, housefather,
which he who kills begets in this same visible
state, as a result of his killing; it is that guilty
dread about the life to come, which he who kills
begets; also that mental suffering and dejection
which be experiences. By abstaining from killing
he begets no guilty dread in this same visible
state nor for the life to come; he experiences no
mental suffering and dejection. Thus in him who
abstains from killing that guilty dread is allayed.

[then the next four precepts are regarded in the same way]

this is from sotāpanna handbook https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

Saengnapha
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:37 pm

Sovatthika wrote: so i'm not going to say stream entry is either common or easy, but one poster said something like genuinely learning/practicing the dhamma leads to stream entry and i think that is the most reasonable conclusion. many say that you have to have perfect virtues, etc. which would imply basically you have to get right at nibbāna and i don't think that's true. many stream enterers have been surprisingly heedless. also, i sort of reject the idea of trying to reach a safe point; although technically true - you can't be reborn in lower states, but you are still living in saṃsāra. there is no respite from that, so sotāpanna is great but don't sell yourself short
I tend to agree with your assessment, but not the part about being heedless. Being mindful and diligent should be a condition for sotapanna. Perfect virtues come about on their own through right conduct, etc., and the intention of mindfulness and diligence. When you act in accordance with principle, you are automatically in accordance with the way.

2600htz
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by 2600htz » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:52 am

Hello:

To keep it fun i will say around 1,000 stream-enterers currently living on earth, maybe less :juggling: .

Regards.

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Sovatthika
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Sovatthika » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:21 am

not heedless with regard to five precepts but heedless in regard to other conduct. 'stainless virtue' for a stream enterer is not the same for an arahant. i will come back if i find examples
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

Garrib
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Garrib » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am

2600htz wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:52 am
Hello:

To keep it fun i will say around 1,000 stream-enterers currently living on earth, maybe less :juggling: .

Regards.
Out of some 231 million estimated Theravada Buddhists in the world - less than 1000 stream enterers makes less than one hundred thousandth of one percent. The number gets much smaller if we include Mahayana! If you're right, the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!

chownah
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:46 am

Garrib wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am
the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!
If you think that there are odds which have anything to do with becoming a stream enterer then I'm wondering how that works.....is it like gambling?
chownah

Garrib
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Garrib » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:53 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:46 am
Garrib wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am
the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!
If you think that there are odds which have anything to do with becoming a stream enterer then I'm wondering how that works.....is it like gambling?
chownah
I guess I was being a bit cheeky. The point being - a lot more than 1000 are trying in earnest to gain the path, so if there are < 1000 stream enterers at present, well that is not such a good sign!

Fortunately, I don't see how anyone could possibly know such a thing without aid of a purified divine eye.

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