How common is stream entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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robertk
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by robertk » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:45 am

Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas
just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .

justindesilva
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:39 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:45 am
Yes. In the case of the dry insight worker it will always be the first jhāna. For others it may be any of the five rūpa jhānas
just to note that although the lokuttara jhana has a force equivalent to the first jhana it is not the mundane first jhana.
It is simply a momentary flash where all eight factors of the path arise together and experience nibbana .
I remember an instance when I was about 12 years I felt that I should get away from my family and all my belonging s. But as I was the only boy with four sisters I was persusded to stay back with my family thus ensuring a duty towards my parents. Later I had to look after my parents as the only boy in th family and was tied.
Yet I feel I have not given up , but I (now old ) am striving to get back in to the stream . In fact this is what a laymen is tied up with but I see a ray of hope by trying to break away from the immediate family and to be a lone meditator. Am I not a stream enterer.

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aflatun
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by aflatun » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:18 am

aflatun wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am
Thank you so much for the response, Bhante!
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:27 am

Cognition of the five sense objects is absent, just as it is with any jhānic consciousness. But not the sixth: the jhānic and supramundane consciousnesses are all instances of mind-consciousness and Nibbāna is the dhamma that they take as their object.

...

No, I think even critics of Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings would agree that in this respect they're incontestably in accordance with the abhidhammic and commentarial understanding of arrival at the supramundane. What is both novel and controversial is the way that the attainment of Nibbāna is conceived by certain Mahasi-influenced ajahns in Thailand; some of them imagine it to be simply a blackout experience without even mind-consciousness.
Very interesting. See I thought the "blackout" thing (all six spheres stop) actually came from Venerable Mahasi himself. I'm probably conflating what he says about Nibbana without residue, with what he describes when he discusses progress of insight. I will try and dig up some relevant quotes and get back to you if that's OK.

Regarding lokuttara jhana, phalasamāpatti, etc, can I find relevant discussion in the Nanamoli's English translation of Visuddhimagga?

EDIT: One other question that came to mind...is lakkhanūpanijjhāna also said to be mind sense only?
Some relevant passages that support your point, Bhante:
Ven. Mahasi wrote:
Nevertheless, during a period of fruition knowledge, lasting an hour or two, reflective moments sometimes arise, but they disappear after four or five noticings, and fruition knowledge recurs. In some cases, fruition knowledge lasts for several hours, without any interruption. While fruition knowledge lasts, consciousness is absolutely set upon the cessation of formations known by the designation of nirvana. Nirvana is a dharma entirely liberated from the bodily and mental process and all mundane notions. Therefore, during the experiencing of fruition knowledge there arises no awareness of one’s bodily and mental processes and of this world, or of any other mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from the entire mundane sphere. One is absolutely free from all mundane knowledge and inclinations. There are around him all objects to see, hear, smell or touch, but he is not aware of them at all.
Practical Insight Meditation, pg. 39-40

Ven. Mahasi wrote:
Thereupon, immediately after the last consciousness in the series of acts of noticing belonging to this insight leading to emergence, the meditator's consciousness leaps forth into Nibbana, which is the cessation of all formations, taking it as its object. Then there appears to him the stilling (subsidence) of all formations called cessation.

...

If the power of concentration has reached perfection, the fruition consciousness will repeatedly become absorbed in cessation by way of fruition attainment. The mind can thus reach absorption even while one is walking up and down, or while taking a meal, and the fruition attainment can remain for any length of time resolved upon. During the fruition attainment, the mind will abide only in the cessation of formations and will not be aware of anything else.
The Progress of Insight



I had that totally wrong! Thank you for pointing this out Bhante.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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