How common is stream entry?

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santa100
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by santa100 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:17 am

R1111 wrote:Perhaps the lay state is so weak that it not only makes Arahants die, maybe it can be grounds for Sotapanna to break precepts in certain circumstance.
Per the sutta, Comy., and notes from the teachers provided above, it should be pretty clear that a Sotapanna has perfected moral virtues of the Five Precepts at a minimum. So, no, if one still breaks the Five Precepts in certain circumstance, s/he's not a Sotapanna. S/he might still break other minor ones from the 227 precepts but would immediately disclose and correct their wrongdoings. One more sutta to confirm this:
AN 9.12 wrote:Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering."
If it's exceedingly rare to attain a human rebirth as per the blind turtle simile, how much more the level of rarity of a Noble attainment, starting with Stream-Entry!

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:27 am

santa100 wrote:Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering."
Thanks i will include that, however how do we know fulfilled virtuous behaviour doesnt refer to ariyahood itself ie? if he is lay person he can go to orgies and masturbate, buy a prostitute? Thats not very Noble or virtuous imo, can he drink coffee or tea? Is it 5 for the lay Sotapanna and 8 for monastic in regards to sexuality precept? What is meant by fetter Silabbata? There is alot of questions, yet you seem certain.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

santa100
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by santa100 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:35 am

R1111 wrote:
santa100 wrote:Again, some person fulfills virtuous behavior but cultivates concentration and wisdom only to a moderate extent. With the utter destruction of three fetters, this person is a seventimes-at-most attainer who, after roaming and wandering on among devas and humans seven times at most, makes an end of suffering."
Thanks i will include that, however how do we know fulfilled virtuous behaviour doent refer to ariyahood itself? Can he masturbate then? if he is lay person he can go to orgies or not? Thats not very Noble or virtuous, can he drink coffee or tea? Is it 5 for the lay Sotapanna or 8 for Anagarika and what is meant by fetter Silabbata? There is alot of questions, yet you seem certain.
I never said I'm certain. The only thing I said was that it should be pretty clear a Sotapanna won't break the Five Precepts. Orgies practice is an exceedginly crude and low activity for I'm not sure even animals practice it, so you should already knew the answer before even asking. Masturbation is kind of "greyish" for the Five Precepts' 3rd precept doesn't seem to include this. Tea and coffee have already been addressed by Ven. Dhammanando in another thread. Now about SilaBbataParamaso/wrong grasp of rules and rituals, it's important to keep in mind Ven. Thanissaro's emphasis in Into the Stream:
Thus one continues to follow virtuous practices, but without defining oneself in terms of them.
Last edited by santa100 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

form
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by form » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:38 am

SarathW wrote:
How does one actually know if they are a sotapanna or not?

Litmus test is to see whether the person is following the Noble Eightfold Path.
That is not for sure as he no longer adhere strictly to rules and rituals. In the NIKAYA, the Buddha once said Dun judge, only he can judge.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:44 am

That is not for sure as he no longer adhere strictly to rules and rituals.
For Sotapanna Noble Eightfold Path is not rules and rituals, it is a way of life.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:12 am

not going to read thru 25 pages to see if this has been posted
viññana sutta:
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

so i'm not going to say stream entry is either common or easy, but one poster said something like genuinely learning/practicing the dhamma leads to stream entry and i think that is the most reasonable conclusion. many say that you have to have perfect virtues, etc. which would imply basically you have to get right at nibbāna and i don't think that's true. many stream enterers have been surprisingly heedless. also, i sort of reject the idea of trying to reach a safe point; although technically true - you can't be reborn in lower states, but you are still living in saṃsāra. there is no respite from that, so sotāpanna is great but don't sell yourself short
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:57 am

How to Proclaim StreamWinning
by Yourself.
“Housefather, when the fivefold guilty
dread is allayed in the Ariyan disciple and
he is possessed of the four limbs of Streamwinning,
and has well seen and well penetrated
the Ariyan Method by insight.
“He may, if he so desire, himself
proclaim thus of himself:
‘I am one who has cut off the doom of
Purgatory, of rebirth in the womb of an animal,
in the realm of ghosts; cut off is the Waste, the
Ill-bourn, the Downfall. A Stream-winner am I,
one not doomed to the Downfall,assured, bound
for enlightenment.’
“Now, housefather, what is the fivefold
guilty dread that is allayed in him ?
12 Buddhawajana
(1) “It is that guilty dread, housefather,
which he who kills begets in this same visible
state, as a result of his killing; it is that guilty
dread about the life to come, which he who kills
begets; also that mental suffering and dejection
which be experiences. By abstaining from killing
he begets no guilty dread in this same visible
state nor for the life to come; he experiences no
mental suffering and dejection. Thus in him who
abstains from killing that guilty dread is allayed.

[then the next four precepts are regarded in the same way]

this is from sotāpanna handbook https://meditationexplorer.files.wordpr ... sion-2.pdf
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Saengnapha
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:37 pm

Sovatthika wrote: so i'm not going to say stream entry is either common or easy, but one poster said something like genuinely learning/practicing the dhamma leads to stream entry and i think that is the most reasonable conclusion. many say that you have to have perfect virtues, etc. which would imply basically you have to get right at nibbāna and i don't think that's true. many stream enterers have been surprisingly heedless. also, i sort of reject the idea of trying to reach a safe point; although technically true - you can't be reborn in lower states, but you are still living in saṃsāra. there is no respite from that, so sotāpanna is great but don't sell yourself short
I tend to agree with your assessment, but not the part about being heedless. Being mindful and diligent should be a condition for sotapanna. Perfect virtues come about on their own through right conduct, etc., and the intention of mindfulness and diligence. When you act in accordance with principle, you are automatically in accordance with the way.

2600htz
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by 2600htz » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:52 am

Hello:

To keep it fun i will say around 1,000 stream-enterers currently living on earth, maybe less :juggling: .

Regards.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:21 am

not heedless with regard to five precepts but heedless in regard to other conduct. 'stainless virtue' for a stream enterer is not the same for an arahant. i will come back if i find examples
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Garrib
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Garrib » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am

2600htz wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:52 am
Hello:

To keep it fun i will say around 1,000 stream-enterers currently living on earth, maybe less :juggling: .

Regards.
Out of some 231 million estimated Theravada Buddhists in the world - less than 1000 stream enterers makes less than one hundred thousandth of one percent. The number gets much smaller if we include Mahayana! If you're right, the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by chownah » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:46 am

Garrib wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am
the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!
If you think that there are odds which have anything to do with becoming a stream enterer then I'm wondering how that works.....is it like gambling?
chownah

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Garrib » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:53 am

chownah wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:46 am
Garrib wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:07 am
the odds are REALLY stacked against us!!
If you think that there are odds which have anything to do with becoming a stream enterer then I'm wondering how that works.....is it like gambling?
chownah
I guess I was being a bit cheeky. The point being - a lot more than 1000 are trying in earnest to gain the path, so if there are < 1000 stream enterers at present, well that is not such a good sign!

Fortunately, I don't see how anyone could possibly know such a thing without aid of a purified divine eye.

Kurplunk
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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Kurplunk » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:19 am

Dhammarakkhito -

A faith follower is not a stream winner. A faith follower has practiced and studied enough to directly see the characteristic of change in all experience. This is simply the removal of one out of three fetters required for stream-entry. The dropping away of the fetter of personality view is the one that I think requires a moment of appana samadhi (absorption concentration), namely magga/phala or nibbana. Someone who has experienced absorption - based on insight into impermanence (like a faith follower would have) - sees that all experience that could be taken as a permanent, fully satisfying self have completely disappeared. Therefore it is no longer possible for this individual to take any experience as permanent; ergo it is no longer possible to take any experience as fully satisfying if clung to. So a stream-winner has directly seen impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self.

Saying that "many stream-winners have been surprisingly heedless" as evidence that stream-winners aren't virtuous is a sort of logical fallacy. In that it presupposes who a stream-winner is in the first place. Maybe you are off the topic of what defines a stream-winner at that point though and are just talking from your experience of what you consider a stream-winner to be. Regardless, I agree that stream-winners are far from perfect and therefore can do unwholesome actions.

Saengnapha-

Only arahants are perfectly mindful. A stream-winner, although easily inclines toward mindfulness, has many moments of mindlessness and heedlessness.

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Re: How common is stream entry?

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:53 am

Kurplunk wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:19 am
A faith follower is not a stream winner.
In the commentaries the saddhānusāri and dhammānusāri are both stated to have arrived at the path of stream-entry. Of course those who base their conclusions on the Suttas alone might arrive at some other view. But since you make recourse in your post to the commentarial conception of...
Kurplunk wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:19 am
a moment of appana samadhi (absorption concentration), namely magga/phala or nibbana.
I assume that these texts carry some weight with you.

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