Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:52 pm

Sunrise wrote: Life is not inherently miserable. It is the mental clinging to natural impermanent phenomena that is causing life miserable.

If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

All feelings (including “pleasant” ones) are ultimately just greater or lesser dukkha. SN36.2, SN36.5, SN36.11.

"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti
SN 36.11(1)

All formations are stressful. Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mikenz66
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:04 pm

lojong1 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general
Wow do I ever feel dopey...I have no idea what's happening here...18 replies and only the first one seemed to even come close to answering the OP.
No worries, I'll keep listening.
:popcorn:
Well, did you want to just talk about DO, or about statements about rebirth in the canon in general? It seems to me that discussion of whether or not DO refers to one or multiple lifetimes is a somewhat separate issue from rebirth in general.

Mike

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:22 am

mikenz66 wrote:Well, did you want to just talk about DO, or about statements about rebirth in the canon in general? It seems to me that discussion of whether or not DO refers to one or multiple lifetimes is a somewhat separate issue from rebirth in general.
Stop it y'all that tickles! :clap:
I'm blown away by how lost I am here. I don't see the connection between the OP and Alex123's DN15 womb quotes, or anything afterward, except this one:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Why get reborn into endless nit-picking discussions about the meaning of words? Those from the Tibetan tradition often call it "Reincarnation," those from the Theravāda tradition usually called it "Rebirth." Whatever you call it, its still just more suffering.Image
Yes, dukkha. Why the nit-picking? Because I see more dukkha in rebirth threads than in nit-picking threads, and I'm spending a few [unskillful?]] moments looking at why the rebirth threads are so painful.
Is it because the "it" that they call "reincarnation" and the "it" that they call "rebirth" is sometimes 'rice-pudding' in the Pali? There are what, seventy odd words and phrases that are commonly translated as "rebirth," forty of those from Pali alone?...I don't know, I'm just not convinced it's a good idea to consider them all synonymous.

I'm afraid to enter the evil rebirth threads to find specific examples right now of all the Paali words 'rebirth' is smudging, but puna-bbhava sticks well out...
The English speaking theravadin community is pretty consistent in that: Bhaava = being; becoming; [3 specific] states of being; dependent on clinging, and the chief condition for birth/jaati; etc... Birth would be a fine word to use, except for the fact that we use birth for 'jaati.' Bhaava is not jaati. How can we not expect confusion when we use the same word for two distinct referents--used in close contextual proximity--intentionally and repeatedly differentiated by Buddha?

Alex123 seems to prefer "re-birth" when discussing puna-bbhava. I'm cool with that. If he wants to try and explain the preference again, I'd like to hear it, and about all the other words crammed into re-birth, and that whole womb thing I didn't get.
In Sobeh's Poll--"Which word is the Pali word for re-birth?"--58% said punabbhava. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5309" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do you say "re-birth [re-jaati]" when you are talking about re-becoming [re-bhaava]? Simply because it's been going on a long spacetime?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:31 am

mikenz66 wrote: Yes, I understood that. But this thread is not just about DO, but about rebirth in general, and the womb is mentioned in many sutta discussions of kamma and rebirth.
I am not talking about "many suttas where womb is mentioned". I am talking about DN 15. Please read my initial comment and comment accordingly. I was replying the poster who took DN15 (Mahanidhana sutta) as an example and I was implying that DN15 is a possible later addition. The comment is about DN 15 and may not be specifically relevant to the thread.

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:49 am

Alex123 wrote: If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

Physical pain is just that: physical pain. It doesn't make life miserable in itself. Taking pain as "miserable" is a mental process; an implication of mental clinging IMO.

:anjali:

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Alex123
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:58 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote: If by "Life is not inherently miserable." you mean only emotional suffering, then I agree. But there is pain and dukkha regardless of clinging. Clinging is one type of suffering

Physical pain is just that: physical pain. It doesn't make life miserable in itself. Taking pain as "miserable" is a mental process; an implication of mental clinging IMO.

:anjali:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.


Sariputta: "There are these three forms of stressfulness, my friend: the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change. These are the three forms of stressfulness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,

Alex
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Sunrise » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.
Pain is only physical if you remove the mental suffering associated with it. That will not make life suffering in itself. Did the Buddha lead a miserable life after enlightenment or did he dwell in peace born from relinquishment?

lojong1
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:28 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
Sunrise wrote:
...etc...
:heart: :popcorn:
You could PM each other?

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:05 am

Alex123 wrote: What else do you propose?
Like I said, I prefer punabbhava or re-becoming. If you don't like those, how about Arthur Schopenhauer's palingenesia?

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Alex123
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Alex123 » Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:08 pm

Sunrise wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
But pain is pain. Pain is dukkha and it is out of total control.
Pain is only physical if you remove the mental suffering associated with it. That will not make life suffering in itself. Did the Buddha lead a miserable life after enlightenment or did he dwell in peace born from relinquishment?
Pain is pain. While the Buddha was in peace inside, He did experience LOTS of pain. Ex in DN16.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Fede
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by Fede » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:34 pm

Oh good grief, semantics!
Pain is pain - yes.
pain is suffering - not necessarily.

Pain is PainFUL, but it doesn't necessarily equate with suffering.

Pain happens,
Pain is felt, pain has a physical manifestation,and sure, it hurts.
Got it.
However, suffering because of pain, is optional.
really, there is a differentiation, and you need to see that.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:49 am

Mmmkay, if we either use more Pali and cut down on these shifty loaded English words with definitions y'all still haven't agreed on yet; or agree on the English definitions BEFORE continuing discussion in the dark; or help me understand how mutual semantic understanding isn't necessary to get our points across, then we'll be on-topic and easy to follow. So far this looks exactly like the "re-birth" communication breakdown.

Dukkha includes: Jaati, jaraa, byaadhi, maranam, soko, paridevo, dukkham, domanassam, upaayaaso, appiyehi sampayogo, piyehi vippayogo, yampiccham na labhati, and 5-aggregate-clinging.
Why not use the Pali term whose meaning you want to convey? That's what this thread was for. :alien:

Fede says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Alex says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Sunrise says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?
Aloka says? There can be dukkha without domanassa?

I'm not sure anything else was said, but it sure looked different. Can it really be this simple? :popcorn:

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octathlon
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:51 am

Fede wrote: Pain happens,
Pain is felt, pain has a physical manifestation,and sure, it hurts.
Got it.
However, suffering because of pain, is optional.
really, there is a differentiation, and you need to see that.
So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.

:anjali:

lojong1
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by lojong1 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:10 am

octathlon wrote:So, out of 6.9 billion people on the planet, for how many is suffering due to physical pain optional? Just wondering.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY thread wrong dirty verboten nix nix quit it use the Pali and there's no argument :ban: :ban: :ban: :focus: :offtopic: :goodpost: :oops: :rules:
BIG HISSY-FIT DUKKHANATION AND MILD CURSES
How many experience bodily-dukkha-dukkha without domanassa? Then we can all understand what's being said without waiting 3 weeks for clarification to stay hidden.
:popcorn:

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octathlon
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Re: Big square of rebirth in small round Xs

Post by octathlon » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:37 am

I'm sorry, lojong, I haven't learned enough Pali :embarassed: --yet!
I just felt the sentiment of that post lacked anukampā.

:anjali:

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