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Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:10 am
by Sherab
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote: Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
Since this is in the General Theravada discussion section, let us keep this within a Theravadin framework, tying it to texts when possible.
Educate me. Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:13 am
by ground
There is no difference between "mind" and "consciousness".
Applying the term "mind": Without object there is no "mind";
applying the term "consciousness": Without "being conscious of [an object]" there is no "consciousness".
Referring to the 12 links of DO:
"Mind" or "consciousness" are effected by ignorance and sankhara.

Kind regards

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:18 am
by ground
If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:06 am
by Sherab
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:47 am
by tiltbillings
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
What do you mean by "a mind?"

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:55 am
by Sherab
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
What do you mean by "a mind?"
A complex of various consciousness. Now could you answer my earlier question?

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:00 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sherab,
Sherab wrote:A complex of various consciousness.
Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness and mind-consciousness?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:08 am
by Sherab
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sherab,
Sherab wrote:A complex of various consciousness.
Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness and mind-consciousness?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, at the very least, I think.

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:13 am
by ground
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
I cannot speak on behalf of Theravada. But what I am actually saying is that a valid assertion is based on direct perception.
Now the question is: What can be directly perceived?
Can "a mind" other than consciousness be perceived?
If "no", why assert "a mind" other than consciousness.
If "yes", can it be perceived through "being conscious" of it or not.
----If "yes", on what grounds is it asserted to be different from consciousness?
----If "no", why assert "a mind" at all?

Kind regards

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:35 am
by Sherab
TMingyur wrote:
Sherab wrote:
TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.

Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"

kind regards
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
I cannot speak on behalf of Theravada. But what I am actually saying is that a valid assertion is based on direct perception.
Now the question is: What can be directly perceived?
Can "a mind" other than consciousness be perceived?
If "no", why assert "a mind" other than consciousness.
If "yes", can it be perceived through "being conscious" of it or not.
----If "yes", on what grounds is it asserted to be different from consciousness?
----If "no", why assert "a mind" at all?

Kind regards
Because we need words/terms in order to communicate.

I have given the meaning of "mind" as I understand it namely that it is a complex of various consciousness.

However you said earlier "If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity." This seemed to imply to me that you are asserting that a mind = a consciousness at every moment. If you did not mean this, could you elaborate on what you actually meant?

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:06 am
by ground
Sherab wrote:Because we need words/terms in order to communicate.
Now you are referring to meaning only?

This did not merely imply meaning:
Sherab wrote:Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
Sherab wrote: I have given the meaning of "mind" as I understand it namely that it is a complex of various consciousness.
A "meaning complex"? Well yes but even in that it is not different from "consciousness" because "consciousness" are differentiated according to some linguistic conventions.
Sherab wrote: This seemed to imply to me that you are asserting that a mind = a consciousness at every moment. If you did not mean this, could you elaborate on what you actually meant?
Based on what I said before I can only say that I can be "conscious" of "being conscious of", i.e. I can directly perceive my "being conscious of" or - a synonym - I can be aware of "being aware of", I can be aware of "being conscious of", I can be conscious of "being aware of". This "being aware of" or "being conscious of" is synonym to "mind" per linguistic convention because I can only perceive what I can perceive. I can conceptualize/think of/fantasize phenomena beyond that but I would not claim these to be valid.

Kind regards

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:12 am
by Mawkish1983
Could I suggest maybe we try to use the pali terms so we all know what is actually being discussed? Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I don't know what 'mind' we are actually discussing. Using the Pali words untranslated might help.

Just a thought

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:35 am
by Sherab
Mawkish1983 wrote:Could I suggest maybe we try to use the pali terms so we all know what is actually being discussed? Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I don't know what 'mind' we are actually discussing. Using the Pali words untranslated might help.

Just a thought
I was referring to citta (in my exchanges with TMingyur)

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:42 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Sherab,
Sherab wrote:I was referring to citta (in my exchanges with TMingyur)
Presumably the Sutta meaning, rather than the more nuanced Abhidhamma definition of the term?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Luminious mind

Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:47 am
by Mawkish1983
So is the 'luminous mind' you're asking about bodhicitta? If not, what word has been translated to 'luminous'? I'm asking so I can read around a bit and maybe (just maybe) usefully contribute to this discussion.