Nanavira.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
alan
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by alan »

Just ordered "Notes" from amazon. In anticipation of reading it, I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil. He was not a scholar, but so what? If his thoughts are useful and compelling, motivating the reader to pursue a more noble path, what is wrong?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alan,

I believe one of the first people to have a response of the type you describe was Mrs. Irene Quittner...
Nanavira Thera wrote:The Notes seem to have struck Mrs. Quittner[1] with considerable impact, and her immediate reaction is all that could be desired. What disturbs her is the fact that statements are made throughout the Notes 'without any reasons' being given for them, on the 'take it or leave it' principle. What the self-respecting reader wants is to have his opinion consulted by the author, who is expected to allow him to make up his own mind about the points at issue, and thus either to agree or to disagree with what is said in the book. If the author does not do this (by failing to give his reasons) he insults the reader (and particularly the feminine reader) by seeming to assume that he (or she) has no opinion worth consulting.

But the one thing I want to avoid is to have readers make up their own mind about the book; for once they have objectively decided whether they agree or disagree with the author's arguments they will shut the book, forget it, and pass on to the next one. No, the Notes are designed to be an invitation, a provocation, a challenge, to the reader to come and share the author's point of view; and if the book starts off by democratically assuming that the reader's opinion is as good as the author's, it will simply defeat its own purpose. At all costs the reader must be prevented from fraternizing with the author.

Consider, for example, Mrs. Quittner's complaint that with a few strokes of the author's pen 'we are reduced from three to two baskets and this without giving any reasons for his statement'. (The reference is evidently to note (a) of the Preface.) If I had provided a discussion of my reasons for doubting the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka (on the lines, perhaps, of what I said in my last letter to you), at once people would have had something positive to seize hold of, and learned controversy might have started up leading more and more passionately away from the point at issue. As Kierkegaard says, "In general, all that is needed to make the question simple and easy is the exercise of a certain dietetic circumspection, the renunciation of every learned interpolation or subordinate consideration, which in a trice might degenerate into a century-long parenthesis." (CUP, pp. 29-30)

As things are, the reader is informed bluntly (condescendingly?) at the beginning of the Notes which canonical books the author proposes to regard as unquestionably correct, so that there will be no room for confusion in the matter. Then, if the reader wants to know the reason for the author's rejection of certain books (the Abhidhamma Pitaka, for example), he must make the effort to understand the Notes and see things as the author sees them. When he has done this, the reason for the rejection of these books will be self-evident.

Mrs. Quittner's 'arrogant, scathing, and condescending' is a clear indication that she has been provoked by the Notes, and the fact that she has already read the NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPĀDA no less than five times seems to confirm it. If people are going to take this much interest in the Notes they are welcome to use whatever strong language about them as they please. I shall only start worrying when people begin calling them 'insipid, flatulent, and platitudinous'.
Source: http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
alan
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by alan »

I have a new hero.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by tiltbillings »

'insipid, flatulent, and platitudinous'.
Tempting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kc2dpt
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by kc2dpt »

alan wrote:Just ordered "Notes" from amazon. In anticipation of reading it, I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil.
He dismisses, contradicts, and reinterprets traditional Theravada Buddhist teachings.
He was not a scholar, but so what?
Without any such foundation, it's hard to understand why he says what he says, if what he says has any merit.
If his thoughts are useful and compelling, motivating the reader to pursue a more noble path, what is wrong?
More noble? I don't know whether it is or not. What I do know is he motivates the reader to follow a different path. That is only wrong if a] the reader wishes to pursue Buddhism and b] if his teachings turn out to not be Buddhism.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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mikenz66
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alan,
alan wrote:Just ordered "Notes" from amazon. In anticipation of reading it, I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil. He was not a scholar, but so what? If his thoughts are useful and compelling, motivating the reader to pursue a more noble path, what is wrong?
Personally, I do not like speaking harshly of anyone's opinions, especially when I have not studied their work extensively. However, I very much agree with Tilt here:
tiltbillings wrote:Just to add, it is a bit annoying to have people say that Buddhadasa, Nanavira, or whomever else really has it in hand and poop on Vens Bodhi, Nyanaponika and whomever else who does not toe the particular line imagined of whatever particular teacher.
As I have said many times, I am interested in different views and opinions about the Dhamma. But I find it very difficult to take seriously claims that imply that Ven. Nanavira (or whoever) has figured out where just about everyone else has gone wrong, and anyone who doesn't agree is a dull, closed-minded traditionalist.

Surely it's more constructive to say something like: "I prefer Ven. X's version over ... because ...." and leave it at that.

Mike
alan
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by alan »

Hi Peter
Well you seem to be one of those who have an extreme emotional reaction to Nanavira!
Do you think his thoughts are without merit? Are they not really Buddhist?
I'm not asking this as a challenge--just trying to gather some opinions before studying the book itself.
Thanks Mike for your input too.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by tiltbillings »

Moderator note: It is really inappropriate to attribute to someone you cannot see or hear what their emotional reactions are, especially "extreme." Do NOT assume what a person's emotional reaction are or are not - if it is important to you: ask, preferably in private.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by alan »

Moderator, note:
At the top of this page the question was asked "I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Moderator, note:
At the top of this page the question was asked "I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil".
Then you might have asked Peter if the subject was generating such emtional response rather than suggesting that it does. You cannot see his face or hear his voice, and going by the written word alone is not always a safe basis for determining an emotional response. If you have any further comments or questions, PM them to me. There will be no further meta-discussions of this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kc2dpt
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by kc2dpt »

I thought my post was rather emotionless, objective, and level-headed. Oh well. :shrug:

Whether I like his teachings or not, Nanavira's teacings are different than traditional Buddhist teachings. He says so himself. This is a fact and quite unemotional.
Do you think his thoughts are without merit? Are they not really Buddhist?
I have no idea. What little I've seen of his thoughts tells me they are different than that which I have chosen to study and practice. As such I have no interest in studying him. I have not yet found fault with the path I'm on and so I feel no urge to explore other paths. I find it is enough work to learn and practice just one school of Buddhism without chasing down every new idea which pops up. However, if a person finds they don't like traditional Buddhist teachings and wants to follow or create something else, that is their right.

If you want an emotional response... When a person says "Everyone else for hundreds of years has it wrong; but I and I alone have discovered the truth..." then I am suspicious of such a person, especially when they do so in a combative and disrespectful way. To contrast, I have heard monks present a personal opinion at odds with tradition and do so in a very respectful and careful way. One way screams to me "EGO ALERT" and the other way does not. Of course, this is only my personal, emotional, opinion. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by kc2dpt »

I believe I understand Alan's confusion.

Alan says, "I'd like to understand why it generates so much emotional turmoil."
Peter gives an answer.
Alan assumes that because Peter gives an answer we can infer Peter has emotional turmoil.

In other words, Alan assumed I was answering the question "why it generates emotional turmoil for me" whereas I was answering the more general question "why it generates emotional turmoil for some people. So to be clearer...

Ven. Nanavira openly dismisses, contradicts, and reinterprets traditional Theravada Buddhist teachings. This sort of thing tends to generate emotional turmoil in folks.

I hope this is clearer.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Ben
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by Ben »

Thank you Peter.
Great responses!
Metta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Yes, Peter did explain the position well.

And I agree that this statement is true...
Peter wrote:Ven. Nanavira openly dismisses, contradicts, and reinterprets traditional Theravada Buddhist teachings.
As a point of clarity though, it is worth pointing out that Nanavira Thera is only opposing the Abhidhamma Pitaka and certain Theravada commentarial interpretations of Sutta. Nanavira is not opposing the first four volumes of the Sutta Pitaka themselves. It would therefore probably be even more accurate to say that "Ven. Nanavira openly dismisses, contradicts, and reinterprets the traditional Theravada Buddhist understanding of the Dhamma."

To say "Teachings" would also infer the first four volumes of the Sutta Pitaka, which he clearly does not oppose. In fact, Nanavira explicitly accepts them in toto.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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bodom
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Re: Nanavira.

Post by bodom »

retrofuturist wrote:As a point of clarity though, it is worth pointing out that Nanavira Thera is only opposing the Abhidhamma Pitaka and certain Theravada commentarial interpretations of Sutta. Nanavira is not opposing the first four volumes of the Sutta Pitaka themselves. It would therefore probably be even more accurate to say that "Ven. Nanavira openly dismisses, contradicts, and reinterprets the traditional Theravada Buddhist understanding of the Dhamma
Thanks for clarifying Retro. I was wondering what all the fuss was about .

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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