the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:58 pm
you seemed to be stating that there is still a body with expires
Yes, from our point of view. I also write "conventional" many times, but since you've decided that I'm a realist, you pretend not to read it.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:58 pm
You seem to be saying that for the Arahant, there is still a body that "dies".
No, only for us while seeing him. He no longer has any concept, "body" included.

That everything is ultimately just a concept is clear to my dog too.

I haven’t decided that you are a realist, it’s just that’s what your comments sometimes suggest even when I give you the benefit of the doubt.

But this is turning into a meta-discussion

:focus:
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

AlexBrains92 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:07 pm
satta is a visatto. Nothing else.
:thumbsup: :bow: :anjali:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:04 pm
An interesting comment from Ven. Nanananda:

“How can one say that the question of an arahant's after death state is totally irrelevant?
A wrong view comment. Arahants don't die. :roll:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:54 pm
Abandon self view and there can still be jati.
No. Arahants have declared "birth has ended".
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:54 pm
This is all quite literal
Unsubstantiated nonsense. Empty claim.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:34 pm
The worlding takes being to mean a concrete “thing”. The Arahant understands “being” to be the result of clinging > becoming > jati and so does not get deluded by the linguistic onvention.
More nonsense. An arahant has no clinging, no becoming & no jati. Therefore, these are not matters related to "convention". "Convention" is "convention". The Arahant can speak "convention" but the Arahant is not "becoming" or "born" here. The suttas say:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

MN 140
:toilet:
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:26 pm
Perhaps there is a language barrier but I would say “phenomenon” of death instead of “concept” of death, which sounds more like a view.
Indeed. There is a language barrier. Enlightened people do not "die" ("marana"). Instead, they end or finish their time ("kālaṅkata"). Its all about language.
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:04 pm
"Manifestation" is exactly what I mean for literal.
How many times must we beat the same drum upon deaf ears? :roll: The Buddha did not speak English. :idea:

The Pali word translated as "manifestation" is "pātubhāvo". It seems this word "pātubhāvo" must be studied in its contextual use to understand its meaning. For example. the following passage appears to not refer the physical birth of Gotama. The following passage appears to be referring to the mind transformed by insight wisdom into "The Buddha":
The appearance [manifestation] of one person, mendicants, is rare in the world.
“Ekapuggalassa, bhikkhave, pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What one person?
Katamassa ekapuggalassa?

The Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.
Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa.

https://suttacentral.net/an1.170-187/en/sujato
SN 12.2 says "jati" is:
Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
"Sattanikāye" means "a category of beings". "Khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo" means "manifestation of their aggregates"; which appears to define a category of beings.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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sentinel
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sentinel »

It is a matter of definition.
Since you can't pinpoint what exactly an arahant is defined as, you definitely can't says arahant dies or don't !
Arahants don't die.

No. Arahants have declared "birth has ended".


If jati is clans , then clans has ended ?!

:toilet:


But, if jati is birth, then arahant can declare birth has ended.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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sentinel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:18 am

If jati is clans , then clans has ended ?!
Its "clan" ("singular"). Even Buddhaghosa taught this. :smile:
At Savatthi. "Monks, I will teach you the burden, the carrier of the burden, the taking up of the burden, and the casting off of the burden. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which is the burden? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' it should be said. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. This, monks, is called the burden.

"And which is the carrier of the burden? 'The person,' it should be said. This venerable one with such a name, such a clan-name. This is called the carrier of the burden.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Visuddhimagga:
32. Now, this word birth (játi) has many meanings. For in the passage “[He
recollects … ] one birth (játi), two births” (D I 81) it is becoming. In the passage,
“Visákhá, there is a kind (játi) of ascetics called Nigaóþhas (Jains)” (A I 206) it is
a monastic order. In the passage, “Birth (játi) is included in two aggregates”
(Dhátuk 15) it is the characteristic of whatever is formed. In the passage, “His
birth is due to the first consciousness arisen, the first cognition manifested, in
the mother’s womb” (Vin I 93) it is rebirth-linking. [499] In the passage “As
soon as he was born (sampatijáta), Ánanda, the Bodhisatta …” (M III 123) it is
parturition. In the passage “One who is not rejected and despised on account of
birth” (A III 152) it is clan. In the passage “Sister, since I was born with the noble
birth” (M II 103) it is the Noble One’s virtue

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... on2011.pdf
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
jātiya
mfn.
being of such a kind, of such a class; ? or type of birth, class, lineage; ?
'
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sentinel
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sentinel »

Note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


The fourth factor, however — the carrier of the burden — has no parallel in the four noble truths, and has proven to be one of the most controversial terms in the history of Buddhist philosophy. When defining this factor as the person (or individual, puggala), the Buddha drops the abstract form of the other factors, and uses the ordinary, everyday language of narrative: the person with such-and-such a name. And how would this person translate into more abstract factors? He doesn't say.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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sentinel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:37 am
Note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
:candle:
(4) “Just as, when the great rivers … reach the great ocean, they give up their former names and designations and are simply called the great ocean, so too, when members of the four social classes—khattiyas, brahmins, vessas, and suddas—go forth from the household life into homelessness in the Dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Tathāgata, they give up their former names and clans and are simply called ascetics following the Sakyan son. This is the fourth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sentinel »

From six sense organ to contact to vedana to tanha upadana bhava (becoming) to jati (tribe) and to old age and death ?!
Can the clan / tribe referring to that particular person reach old age and death ?!
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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sentinel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:44 am
From six sense organ to contact to vedana to tanha upadana bhava (becoming) to jati (tribe) and to old age and death ?!
Can the clan / tribe referring to that particular person reach old age and death ?!
Its not clan although clan is one type of birth. When the clan or tribe has aging & death, there is also suffering, for those attached to the clan.
Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives...

SN 15.3
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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To describe a particular person dependent origination or its cessation , it seems that his clan or tribe does not apply . Eg say Ananda identity as a sakyan , even though after Ananda attained arahant stage, his identity as a sakyan did not go through aging and then died.

they give up their former names and clans and are simply called ascetics following the Sakyan son. This is the fourth astounding and amazing quality that the bhikkhus see in this Dhamma and discipline….


https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/bodhi
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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sentinel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:53 am
To describe a particular person dependent origination or its cessation , it seems that his clan or tribe does not apply . Eg say Ananda identity as a sakyan , even though after Ananda attained arahant stage, his identity as a sakyan
Its a "convention" for Arahants.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:14 am
sentinel wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:53 am
To describe a particular person dependent origination or its cessation , it seems that his clan or tribe does not apply . Eg say Ananda identity as a sakyan , even though after Ananda attained arahant stage, his identity as a sakyan
Its a "convention" for Arahants.
And convention here means ?
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.

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zerotime
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:31 pm
The deathless isn’t the cessation of the “concept” of death. It’s the cessation of the world. You still seem to be taking the aggregates as being real and existing things.
it is. Although this is difficult to accept for many people. This is a metaphysical issue affecting the own position in the existence, and many people is not able to confront. Probably in ancient times the people was more courageous.
It belongs to that type of questions like knowing if one is dreaming his own life; we don't have a way to know it neither any scientific guy can tells
nothing about these doubts.

The problem of the individuation of the self and the arising of the world, it's a similar issue. And Rebirth is a logical necessity inside that, still more in the Buddha treaching. There is no need to become a pali miner because the issue is not so complicated. This is what what we read in example in SN 12.65 :

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


we can change "name-form" by "the world" or "reality", and that's all.

This is dependence going until the end. The birth of both "my self" and "this world" are a dependent event. And logically, in the same way my death and the vanishing of this world would be a dependent event. It doesn't care the "physical" birth or birth in this very moment. The physical scope is no relevant because our senses are kamma and our mind-images are nama. For that reason inside the Suttas there are beings arising without body, or with fine rupa, and etc with a blurred physical scope

Materialist inhabits in a limited mind and the non-rebith is a complete non-sense for the logics. This non-sense is important because it draws those metaphysical limits to them. However, I wonder if that lack of logics can be close to that strange pathology suffered by some few people, who don't want to go to sleep because they fear at the end there is some "nothingness" or a "definitive darkness" or any other unrational invention.

One should be compassionate with the materialist people. Because there is fear and dukkha behind the intellectual chattering empty of causality and logics. And it should be well rooted, because even when some find the Buddha teaching with a solid metaphysical logical explanation, still they prefer keeping the non-rational.

Perhaps for that reason many materialists and secularists are so obsessed in ruling and modelling the world. They should take care of those limits of their own prison. Although they repeats "freedom" many times, which is funny.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

zerotime wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:31 pm
The deathless isn’t the cessation of the “concept” of death. It’s the cessation of the world. You still seem to be taking the aggregates as being real and existing things.
it is. Although this is difficult to accept for many people. This is a metaphysical issue affecting the own position in the existence, and many people is not able to confront. Probably in ancient times the people was more courageous.
It belongs to that type of questions like knowing if one is dreaming his own life; we don't have a way to know it neither any scientific guy can tells
nothing about these doubts.

The problem of the individuation of the self and the arising of the world, it's a similar issue. And Rebirth is a logical necessity inside that, still more in the Buddha treaching. There is no need to become a pali miner because the issue is not so complicated. This is what what we read in example in SN 12.65 :

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html


we can change "name-form" by "the world" or "reality", and that's all.

This is dependence going until the end. The birth of both "my self" and "this world" are a dependent event. And logically, in the same way my death and the vanishing of this world would be a dependent event. It doesn't care the "physical" birth or birth in this very moment. The physical scope is no relevant because our senses are kamma and our mind-images are nama. For that reason inside the Suttas there are beings arising without body, or with fine rupa, and etc with a blurred physical scope

Materialist inhabits in a limited mind and the non-rebith is a complete non-sense for the logics. This non-sense is important because it draws those metaphysical limits to them. However, I wonder if that lack of logics can be close to that strange pathology suffered by some few people, who don't want to go to sleep because they fear at the end there is some "nothingness" or a "definitive darkness" or any other unrational invention.

One should be compassionate with the materialist people. Because there is fear and dukkha behind the intellectual chattering empty of causality and logics. And it should be well rooted, because even when some find the Buddha teaching with a solid metaphysical logical explanation, still they prefer keeping the non-rational.

Perhaps for that reason many materialists and secularists are so obsessed in ruling and modelling the world. They should take care of those limits of their own prison. Although they repeats "freedom" many times, which is funny.


What I mean to say is that with the cessation of the world there is a cessation of signs and concepts.

Or do you mean that Alex’s post is still taking the aggregates as being real and existing things?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Perhaps for that reason many materialists and secularists are so obsessed in ruling and modelling the world. They should take care of those limits of their own prison. Although they repeats "freedom" many times, which is funny.
Interesting thought
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth... 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'"

And it is here that there is the whole story of samsaric existence, aeons past and aeons to come.

:anjali:
“Bhikkhus, whatever is not yours, abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. ” SN 35:101

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